By New Age Islam Edit Desk
November 06, 2014
Transcription of a video of an ideological debate between a Taliban Scholar and Pakistani Army Official based on the translation from Urdu in the superimposed text in Pakistan government video.
[Being presented so that Ulema (Islamic scholars) may know how Islam is being distorted in extremist discourse and defend Islam's peaceful nature by refuting the allegations against Quran (words of God), Hadees (sayings of the Prophet), Sunnah (examples, practices) of the Prophet and Shariah (Islamic Law).]
Pakistani Army Official: My brother, I want to say that the banks that you are looting do not belong to Pakistan Army. Those banks contain the money of poor people and the money of those people for example who have been planning for the weddings of their children all their lives. Maybe you are kidnapping the children of wealthy individuals so that you could extort good amount of money from them. Is this act justified in your eyes? Also, tell me if you consider all the people of Pakistan Kuffar except yourself?
Taliban Scholar: (Sounds unhappy) I think you have lost the balance of your mind. I have already clarified the matter of kidnapping the children that we are not linked to it. Regarding banks, we try to raid those banks that are related to the government and we try to open the coffers of government. In majority of the cases, that is the case, but in minority of the cases we can also make mistakes. Obviously, we are human beings and we accept our mistakes. But we say that is not necessary that we would only raid the Army banks; Pakistan government is also our enemy. You soldiers of Army are not some kind of enemy that have come from here and there. Rather, you have been sent to fight us by Pakistan government. In summary, we raid the banks of Pakistan government, Army where government’s money is stored. We consider this action legitimate and we openly do this. Similarly, we consider it legitimate to take prisoners for Ghanimah; not what you call “kidnapping for ransom,” We do not kidnap the children; rather these are your own actions.
Pakistani Army Official: Whether you call it Aseer for Ghanimah or kidnapping for ransom or whatever other beautiful name you may give it, the money raised through this action is illegitimate. This is the money of robbing. It is strictly forbidden in Islam to steal or rob. (Sounds angry) Is this not criminal and felony that you pick a person and say to him, “give us the money or we will kill you. “ Is this not criminal?
Taliban Scholar: We do not pick any person for no reason rather we seize the people like yourself. Have people come here (in the tribal areas) for Tableegh (calling people to Islam)? If your presence in the tribal areas is not felony, then what else is it?
Pakistani Army Official: We say that we have come to the tribal areas to do Jihad and to purify our country from the terrorists. We have come here to eliminate those elements that kill innocent people, women and children; who have ruined the peace and tranquillity of this country and who use the money of Jews, Christians and Hindus to destroy this country. We have come here to fight them.
Taliban Scholar: (Sounds surprised) So you consider it Jihad what you are doing? Isn’t it very strange that people fighting on both side of this war are Mujahideen? This is really strange that you take money from America, you take planes from America, you use the helicopters of America and often the American military personnel meet and advise your Ameer Kiyani (then head of Pakistan Army) and you are saying that you are doing Jihad! (Sarcastically) That is an excellent form of Jihad, isn’t it? No problem, carry on doing such “Jihad.”
Pakistani Army Official: Respected Ameer Keyani does not take any money [from Americans). He bears his expenses himself. Tell me another thing. Why do you guests come here from Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan etc? Have you ever gone to Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan to fight against their government as Shariah is not established there either. Have your friends ever allowed you to come and fight in their countries?
Taliban Scholar: Prophet PBUH migrated from his homeland Makkah to Medina and initiated Jihad from there. When he gained strength in Medina then he attacked Makkah. Our sequence is also the same those Uzbek and Turkmen brothers who are Muslims and immigrants, should come to us (in tribal areas of Pakistan) and build their strength here. Then they would go back to attack their own countries. This is the Sunnah and Seerah of Prophet PBUH and we are acting upon it. Our (Uzbek and Turkmen) companions ask us to help them but we do not have time at the moment because we are busy fighting against people like you who falsely call themselves Muslims. But as soon as the Islamic Emirate is established in Pakistan and Afghanistan, we shall attack the areas like Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan as well, inshaAllah.
Pakistani Army Official: Nearly eleven or twelve years have gone by, but I have never heard about (such an attack on Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan). My heartfelt desire is that you should go to Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan and see how much immorality and un-Islamic practices are spreading there. All the criminals from those countries have migrated from those countries to you in Pakistan and you people patted them on the back, awarded them the name of Mujahideen and also donated the land to them so that they could have means to spread criminal activities in Pakistan. Why don’t you go to Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan? They never invite you there but you are offering them all hospitalities and place to carry out criminal activities here in Pakistan. What is this matter?
Taliban Scholar: Very right, we are just like the Ansaar of Medina, the way they helped their immigrant guests and we feel proud about it, Alhamdulillah. The peace in Pakistan is like the peace in graveyard where people’s honour, property or Deen; nothing is secure. We are thankful to Allah SWT for disrupting such kind of peace. We pray to Allah SWT that this anarchy should continue until Shariah is established in Pakistan.
Pakistani Army Official: Very well. So you are saying that the anarchy should continue while it is mentioned in Qur’an (persecution is severer then slaughter. EMQ 2:191). You, on the other hand, are calling for the continuation of anarchy. Respected scholar, you are negating all the Islamic rulings one after another but may not realize it. You are rejecting Islamic rulings one after another.
Taliban Scholar: We are actually fighting to eliminate this Fitnah that is present in Pakistan in the form of Kufr and shirk. (And fight with them until there is no more persecution. EMQ 8:39).you don’t have any knowledge about Shariah.[smirks mockingly] if you had any knowledge of Shariah only then you could say that we were rejecting the Islamic ruling. It would be better if you bring some scholar to debate with you.
Pakistani Army Official: You declared imam of ka’ba as “Mullah of king’s court”. You also do not consider Maulana Naeemi a Shaheed, who spent all his life studying. You have rejected Maulana Hasan Jan as well. Whoever speaks against you or questions you, is considered worthy to be killed and whoever pats you back is a good person. Is this your principle?
Taliban Scholar: No, rather this is your principle. Maulana Hasan Jan was killed by your Army. Other than him, rest of all the scholars that you named are/were your own allies. Did you not kill scholars like Mufti Nizamuddin Shamzai Shaheed RA, Maulana Yusuf Ludhianvi Shaheed RA and many others who were only speaking the truth?
Pakistani Army Official: You are reaching the extreme limit of lying. You killed Maulana Naeemi (a Sufi-minded Alim) of Lahore and you accepted that earlier. Did you not?
Taliban Scholar: Definitely, we accept the responsibility of this assassination. We considered his an enemy of Taliban and a poodle of government. We shall kill other people like him as well, Insha Allah.
Pakistani Army Official: Very well, it means that you have adopted a principle of your own that whoever speaks against you, will be killed. There are very strict punishments of murder in Islam and nobody should be killed without confirmation. You never debated with that scholar so how did you kill him without understanding his point of view or discussing the matter with him? You have set a new example of terrorism and criminality.
Taliban Scholar: We have and we will kill these kinds of Imams and scholars such as Naeemi. We have killed them in the past and Insha Allah this process will continue. We will kill any such person who supports the government and protests against Taliban or against those who are raising voice to implement Shairah. We consider it Jihad and we are allowed to do that according to Shariah.
Pakistani Army Official: Ok, leave everything else aside, just tell me how many Americans have you killed in Pakistan? Tell me the truth please. How many Muslims have you killed that you call Murtaddeen and how many Americans did you kill?
Taliban Scholar: You have asked this question already. Have you gone zero meters again? I have already told you that we kill you people (of Pakistan Army) with the intention of killing the Americans. Time and again, you are asking that how many Americans we have killed. You can go to Afghanistan and see for yourself how many Americans did we kill. We are known as Taliban in Afghanistan as well as in Pakistan. We follow the commands of same one Ameer. Whether we kill the enemy in Pakistan or Afghanistan, it does not make any difference to us. These boundary lines mean nothing for us. Whether we kill Americans in Afghanistan or in Pakistan, what difference does it really make?
Pakistani Army Official: So you are saying that you are killing the enemy here (in Pakistan) as well as there (in Afghanistan) but Mullah Omar gave a statement in the past that he had nothing to do with the Taliban of Pakistan. Now you should not lie by saying that he did not give such a statement as the whole world has listened to his statement and it has been published in the newspaper too. He said that he was not responsible for the Taliban of Pakistan and that the Taliban of Pakistan were making their own strategy (without consulting him). Tell me what answer do you have for that?
Taliban Scholar: You are only regurgitating the pre-fed propaganda, which is not good. The orders of Ameer ul Momineen Mullah Muhammad Omar (HA) are delivered to us as pre-recorded tapes or as a signed document through a trustworthy courier. These are confidential decrees and they are not published on the internet or in the newspapers. The official commands are transmitted through the governors. So your assertions like “do not lie” or this and that; are useless howls. We obey and submit to the commands of Ameer ul Mumineen (Mullah Muhammad Omar) but no such command of disowning has reached us. We can state clearly that the leader of Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan Hakeemullah Mehsud (HA) has vowed allegiance on the hand of Ameer ul Momineen Mullah Muhammad Omar and we obey their commands. You are saying that such news has been published in the newspapers etc. But these official matters are not carried out this way. For example, if we (Taliban) publish a newspaper and write inside that Pakistan Army has been ordered to withdraw from South Waziristan; would you then (believe in it and) withdraw?
Pakistani Army Official: So you are saying that he (Mullah Muhammad Omar) has not given any command to disown the Pakistani Taliban while the truth is that he later on repeated the same statement again. It is like (a proved), complainant is lazy but the witness is quick. Mullah Omar says that he has nothing to do with you people (Pakistani Taliban) while you the witness, are saying that you are linked to him. He has disowned you long time ago. If you do not accept this then I cannot do anything. I don’t have any cure for the stubborn.
Taliban Scholar: (Laugh lightly), “Complainant is lazy and witness is quick”, this proved is more befitting to you because we are in contact with Ameeu UL Momineen Mullah Muhammad Omar more than you are. We know him much better than you do. He has not issued any such decree (of disowning Pakistani Taliban). If any command will come from him, it will only be through those three means mentioned above. Methods of communication used among our leaders are those three only and the orders from higher ups are not passed through the newspapers.
Pakistani Army Official: Maulana, do you receive funds from India (government, military and secret services) or not?
Taliban Scholar: Why? What happened? Have you become unwell?
Pakistani Army Official: (stresses) I am asking whether you are receiving funds from India or not?
Taliban Scholar: I am also asking whether you are alright or not?
Pakistani Army Official: I am completely well and healthy. You just tell me whether you devour Indian money or not?
Taliban Scholar: Well, they are your rulers who go and visit India. Indian actors and actresses come and visit you people. You have the relations with India and your foreign ministers frequent with Indians. If you have some evidence, then produce it rather than beating about the bush. We consider India our enemy and repeatedly mention about the preparation of a war against India in future called “Ghazawatul Hind.”(laughs). You are falsely accusing us of devouring Indian money but your own situation is that you accepted defeat in Kargil, handed over Kashmir to India and prior to that lost in Bangladesh. 90,000 of your soldiers laid down their weapons in front of Indians. You people of Pakistan Army are the real slaves of India, not us.
Pakistani Army Official: O yeah! We know your condition as well. We made a mistake by trusting you. 15 to 20 years have gone by and you have not fulfilled your promise of liberating Kashmir. Trusting you was our mistake; you could not liberate Kashmir for us. You claimed that you will push America out of Afghanistan but you have been unsuccessful. Your greatest leader Osama bin Laden claimed that he would push Americans out of Iraq but there too you have been unsuccessful. Have you people gained any success anywhere? Have you ever thought about it?
Taliban Scholar: These are the same useless arguments that you are repeating again and again. We can continue if you have anything sensible to say otherwise we end this session here. I have mentioned many times before that we regard success as establishing the Shariah or we embrace Shahadah (martyrdom). For example, if it takes 50 years to defeat Americans in Afghanistan; Allah SWT is not going to ask us why we took such a long time. Regarding those insurgents fighting in Kashmir, they are your own people. Their organisations (such as Lashkar e Taiba, Jaish e Muhammad etc) are still working under Pakistan Army. Feed them well and make them fat but we Taliban have nothing to do with them, Alhamdulillah. Moreover, I am also prepared to challenge that may curse of Allah SWT be upon the one who is not truthful, Ameen, Summa Ameen. I urge all the listeners to proclaim “Ameen” collectively with me. I also add that we are sitting in the part of Khurasan and trying to enter into Al-Hind. When Prophet PBUH revealed about Ghazwa tul Hind, Pakistan was not in existence then (i.e. it was part of Al-Hind region). Alhamdulillah, we shall be rewarded for the Jihad in Khurasan as well as in al-Hind. May peace be upon the one who follow the Divine guidance.
Pakistani Army Official: I also say Ameen in reply to your challenge. I pray to Allah SWT that may He curse the oppressor and help the oppressed, Ameen.
Talibani Scholar: Ameen, Summa Ameen. If you have any question or doubt in future, you are welcome to join the session.
Pakistani Army Official: Thank you, Assalam o Alaikum.
URL of Part 1: https://www.newageislam.com/debating-islam/debating-his-islam-with-pakistan-army,-taliban-scholar-asks-why-do-you-have-any-doubt-that-we-consider-pakistanis-kuffar,-cites-prophet-s-demolition-of-masjid-e-zarrar-of-munafiqs-to-justify-terrorism--1/d/98645
URL of Part 2: https://www.newageislam.com/debating-islam/new-age-islam-edit-desk/-we-kill-you-pakistanis,-thinking-we-are-killing-americans,-we-have-sinned-by-accepting-your-and-american-help-in-anti-soviet-jihad,--taliban-scholar-tells-pakistan-army-official---2/d/98664
URL of Part 3: https://www.newageislam.com/debating-islam/quiad-e-azam-was-an-ismaili-shia,-a-kafir;-is-pakistan-his-property;-it-is-our-homeland-and-we-want-to-implement-shariah-of-allah-in-our-homeland,-taliban-scholar-tells-pakistan-army-official---3/d/98684
URL of Part 4: https://www.newageislam.com/debating-islam/by-new-age-islam-edit-desk/-prophet-mohammad-himself-justified-and-practiced-killing-of-innocent-children,-women,-civilians---taliban-scholar-tells-pakistan-army-official-quoting-hadees-from-bukhari-to-justify-terrorism----4/d/98703
URL of Part 5: https://www.newageislam.com/debating-islam/new-age-islam-edit-desk/-the-real-fighting-in-islam-is-offensive;-defensive-fighting-is-carried-out-even-by-animals;-cutting-throats-is-the-sunnah-(practice)-of-the-prophet----taliban-scholar-tells-pakistan-army-official---5/d/98924
URL of Part 6: https://www.newageislam.com/debating-islam/new-age-islam-edit-desk/-kidnapping-for-ransom-is-part-of-jihad-in-our-eyes,-it-is-allowed-in-shariah-as-ghanimah;-the-money-in-the-banks-of-pakistan-is-war-booty-for-us---debate-between-pakistani-army-official-and-taliban-scholar---6/d/99760