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Debating Islam ( 19 Aug 2014, NewAgeIslam.Com)

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Debating his Islam with Pakistan Army, Taliban Scholar asks why do you have any doubt that we consider Pakistanis Kuffar, cites Prophet's Demolition of Masjid-e-Zarrar of Munafiqs to justify Terrorism -1


Transcription Of A Video Of An Ideological Debate Between A Taliban Scholar And Pakistani Army Official Based On The Translation From Urdu In The Superimposed Text In Pakistan Government Video.

{Being presented so that Ulema (Islamic scholars) may know how Islam is being distorted in extremist discourse and defend Islam's peaceful nature by refuting the allegations against Quran (words of God), Hadees (sayings of the Prophet), Sunnah (examples, practices) of the Prophet and Shariah (Islamic Law).}

By New Age Islam Edit Desk

Pakistani Army Official: When Prophet (pbuh) set Masjid-e-Zarrar on fire, were there any Munafiqeen (hypocrites) present inside?

Taliban Scholar: I gave you the answer, but it seems that you do not want to understand.

Pakistani Army Official: Explain to me again. When Prophet (pbuh) was setting Masjid-e-Zarrar on fire, were there any Munafiqeen present inside? Say yes or no.

Taliban Scholar: No, there weren’t any (Munafiqeen present inside).

Pakistani Army Official: But when you (Taliban) attack a Masjid, are there any people present inside?

Taliban Scholar: That is why the first evidence that we presented was that فإن قاتلوكم فاقتلوهم  (but if they fight you, then kill them. 2:191).  If the Kuffar come to fight you inside a Masjid, then you can also kill them (inside a Masjid).

Pakistani Army Official: Read the verse correctly. There, the word “Kafir” is mentioned in Qur’an, not “Munafiq”. Is this not the case?

Taliban Scholar: Absolutely, I already explained to you that I mentioned Masjid-e-Zarrar as supportive evidence that the fighting can carry on even if there is a risk of damage to the Masjid. Otherwise the main evidence is sufficient that ولا تقتلوهم عند المسجد الحرام حتى يقاتلوكم فيه  ( do not fight them at Masjid Haram until they fight you there. EMQ 2:191). This is quite simple and does not require a lot of explanation.

Pakistani Army Official: I am asking, it is mentioned in Quran that if Kuffar fight against you (then you fight against them). Does it mean that you consider us Kuffar?

Taliban Scholar: Why do you have any doubt about that? (Sounds surprised).

Pakistani Army Official: Right, in one battle, a Sahabi (Prophet’s companion) RA told Prophet (pbuh),” A Kafir was reciting Kalima out of fear but I killed him, “Prophet (pbuh) said, “Did you open his heart to see whether he was a Muslim or not?” Now I recite Kalima in front of you: لا إله إلا الله محمد رسول الله (La Ilaha Illallah u Muhammad ur Rasool Allah).  Now I may be a Munafiq but I cannot be a kafir. Tell me now, is it justifiable for you to kill me?

Taliban Scholar: We consider you “Murtad”. Murtad is a person who recites Kalima but has renounced Islam. Your actions are like those people who have renounced Islam.  You make fun of Shariah; you take the help from Kuffar to kill the Muslims. All these actions are not classified as major sins but committing such acts takes the person outside the fold of Islam into the domain of Kufr.

Pakistani Army Official: Okay, tell me, you fought against Russians for eleven years and you took the help and money from Jews, Christians and America.  When you take the money, you consider it legal but if somebody else takes money, you consider him worthy to be killed. Do you think that the money you took (during Afghan war) was legitimate?

Taliban Scholar: Taking help from a Kafir against another Kafir is a debatable issue but the issue of taking the help from a Kafir to kill a Muslim is very clear. It is agreed upon that whoever takes the help from a Kafir to kill a Muslim, becomes a Murtad. Fatwa of  Shaikh ul Islam Hussain Ahmad Madni (Deobandi r.h) and the Fatwas of many scholars of the past are there to support this opinion. Mufti Nizamuddin Shamzai, whom you people have killed, gave a fatwa in this regard and scholars of Red Mosque (Lal Masjid, Islamabad) also issued a fatwa supporting this opinion. If the verdicts of the respectable scholars are not sufficient for you then we cannot do much to convince you.

Pakistani Army Official: Great, the scholars who give Fatwas in your favour are right, but you killed Maulana Hasan Jan because he gave fatwa against you.  You killed Maulana Abbas (Sarfaraz) Naeemi of Lahore (a Barelvi scholar) because he gave fatwa against you. Moreover, Imam of Ka’ba (Sudais) has given a fatwa in this regard. If you do not accept the fatwa of Imam of Ka’ba, I can only pray for you, may Allah open your eyes. Imam of Ka’ba has given the fatwa that suicide attacks are strictly forbidden and haram in Islam. This is the fatwa of Imam of Ka’ba; would you not even accept this?

Taliban Scholar: Certainly, we consider Imam of Ka’ba misguided, we consider him “Mullah of King’s court”; and we consider him a servant of Taghoot (false deities, devil). Other people that you mentioned, like Abbas or whatever Naeemi; yes we accept the responsibility of this assassination. In future as well, we will assassinate people will similar minds. Regarding Maulana Hasan Jan, we have no knowledge of his killing. He was killed by your Army so you should accept the responsibility of his murder.

I want to make clear that whoever will oppose the point of view of Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan, we will assassinate him and we consider it Jihad.

The problem is that you don’t want to understand what I’m trying to explain. I am saying that the issue of taking help from a Kafir against another Kafir is a debatable issue like our ancestors sought help from America and ISI etc. against the Russians but the aid that you are taking from America for the past decade, is meant for the killing of the Muslims. This is clearly Kufr; this is clear apostasy; there is no doubt about it. Now it is up to you if you understand or no. If you choose not to understand, then we have made good arrangements for you, Alhamdulillah. Don’t worry, if  Allah’s Qur’an is not  sufficient for you and if Hadith of Allah’s messenger (pbuh) is not sufficient for you then we have made suitable arrangements to make you understand, Alhamdulillah!

Pakistan Army Official: So you are saying basically that whoever will disagree with you, you will kill him. But there is a Hadith of prophet (pbuh) that you should not curse somebody else’s God because they may curse Allah (swt) in return. The second incident is that Prophet (pbuh) sent Khalid bin Waleed ra to a tribe to call them to Islam. When Khalid bin Waleed ra invited those people to Islam, they could not express correctly that they had accepted Islam. Due to misunderstanding, Khalid bin Waleed started killing those people. When prophet (pbuh) heard this news that Khalid RA had killed the people of that tribe, he came out under the open sky with tears in his eyes. He raised his hands towards the sky and said,  ”O Allah, you know that I, Muhammad, am not responsible for such an act. This was not my command and it was Khalid’s own act. I never ordered to kill somebody who does not recite Kalima.” Later, Prophet (pbuh) paid the blood money through another sahabi (companion). This shows that if somebody is not able to recite Kalima, even then killing such a person is not justified according to Islam. But you are killing those people who are loudly and clearly reciting the Kalima. I would say that you have gone to the extreme limit of ignorance.

Taliban Scholar: All the references that you are quoting are related to Kuffar. The incident of Khalid bin Waleed RA that you mentioned shows that those new reverts did not know what word should they use to declare Islam. As far as you people are concerned, you have been living among the Muslims all your lives. You have been deceiving other Muslims that you are Muslims too. You know all these simple things very well. You mock and degrade Shariah knowingly. How can you bring the incidence of Khalid bin Waleed ra as evidence. Those people of the tribe said صبانا   instead of  أسلمنا because they could not understand correctly but you people understand fully.

If you recite Kalima then you should act upon it as well.

Coming to the point that you mentioned about  ولا تسبوا الذين يدعون من دون الله فيسبوا الله عدوا بغير علم  (and do not abuse those whom they call upon besides Allah, lest exceeding the limits they should abuse Allah SWT out of ignorance. EMQ 6:108). Allah SWT has forbidden us from cursing the false gods of Kuffar because they may abuse Allah SWT out of ignorance. But you are not one of those ignorant Mushrekeen who would curse Allah SWT out of ignorance. You know very well not to do that. Why do you want to fit the characteristics of real Kuffar upon yourself? This is your own stupidity that you are considering yourself as the real Kafir (كافر أصلي ). We say that you are the offspring of Muslims; you were born in Muslim families but due to your actions, you have become Murtad (apostate). This is our humble explanation. After that if you call us ignorant or whatever; we are not bothered.

Pakistan Army Official: Look, I am reciting the Kalima again لا إله إلا الله محمد رسول الله  . You know very well that whoever recites Kalima from his tongue but does not believe in his heart, is not called a Murtad. You know this so do not try to misguide other people. Such a person is known as Munafiq. A Murtad is defined as a person who recites the Kalima but then renounces his faith saying that he does not believe in Allah SWT and his Messenger (pbuh). The person, who recites Kalima but does not act upon it, is known as Munafiq. We recite the Kalima and here I am repeating the Kalima again for you لا إله إلا الله محمد رسول الله . Now tell me, did prophet (pbuh) ever kill a single person in his life saying that he was a Munafiq?

Taliban Scholar: Try to understand please. I have clearly explained to you earlier that we consider you Murtad and not a Munafiq. Insha Allah, we shall talk in detail about the rulings regarding killing a Munafiq in tomorrow’s session that killing a Munafiq is allowed (مباح) but not obligatory. Prophet (pbuh) said (when asked for the permission to kill Abdullah bin Ubai, chief of Munafiqeen), “No, lest the people should say that Muhammad used to kill his companions”. This proves that killing a Munafiq is permitted but not obligatory. This is the only difference that you are not able to understand. Secondly, you are saying that Munafiq is like this and Murtad is like that. My humble suggestion to you is that it is not necessary for somebody to become a Murtad that he should renounce the Kalima through his tongue; there are certain actions, if committed, can take the person outside the fold of Islam. For example, mocking the Qur’an, mocking the Shariah, mocking the agreed upon Verdicts (Fatwas), like causing hindrance in implementation of Shariah, or to throw Qur’an into filth, blaspheme the name of Allah SWT; all these actions are such that only committing them takes a person outside the fold of Islam. I have also repeated the Fatwas of scholars many times that if a Muslim takes the help of a kafir to kill another Muslim, such act is sufficient to make him a kafir. Uttering only the words لا إله إلا الله محمد رسول الله is not sufficient.

(To be continued)