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Debating Islam ( 6 Jun 2010, NewAgeIslam.Com)

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Faithful killers, fatal worship

(We are publishing Malik Rashid’s article in the backdrop of the recent massacre of Ahmaddiyyas in Pakistan which first appeared on Ibrahim Sajid Malik’s website, along with some of the comments it evoked. – Editor)

By Malik Rashid

Friday prayer congregations at two Ahmadiyya mosques were attacked by grenades, gun-fire and suicide-bombers in Lahore. More than 90 individuals lost their lives and over 100 suffered wounds. Taliban of Punjab claimed responsibility.

Journalists reporting the hour long brutality might have been surprised to know that Ahmadiyya worship places cannot be referred as ‘mosques’, according to a constitutional amendment introduced by General Zia-ul-Haq.

 

Ahmadiyya is a sect that came into being in early 20th century among Punjabi Muslims. Besides making fantastic claims like all other religions, Ahmadis relinquished Jihad(Holy war) by sword, and resolved to rely on the power of argument.

 

Religious extremism, especially killing and persecution of Ahmadi-Muslims in Pakistan is as old as the country itself. An army doctor, Major Mahmood was murdered by a mob of mullas in Quetta in 1948. A martial-law was imposed in Lahore to curb anti-Ahmadi riot in 1953. Muslim League made an alliance with ‘Ahrar’, the Ahmadi-haters, in the elections of 1951 and the religious zealots celebrated ‘Yom-e-Tashakkur’ (thanksgiving) because no Ahmadi made it into the parliament. Mian Daulatana, the Muslim-League Chief Minister, was sacked by the Governor General after the 1953 riot.

 

A prominent TV journalist was recently caught on tape talking to Punjabi Taliban against the Ahmadis. Attempt to show strength against Facebook by religious sections did not gain much support among Muslims in Pakistan and abroad. This brutality against unarmed, innocent worshipers could have been another show-off by Islamic extremists who fear extinction.

 

As families in Lahore grieve the demise of their loved ones, Pakistanis all over the world feel perplexed over the resolve of those who should be fighting the scourge of Taliban. Quoting instances of Taliban presence in Punjab, a Dawn editorial expressed,” What more will it take to convince the provincial government that the Punjabi Taliban are a reality that cannot be wished away?”

 

The ruling Muslim League in Punjab enjoys friendly relations with Jihadi outfits for political gains like the Muslim League of 1953. Talking to media, Senior Advisor to Punjab Chief Minister Zulifiqar Khosa said that an operation was started in the tribal areas because the writ of the government was challenged, but Punjab is not facing such problems.

 

Justice Munir and Justice Kayani wrote in their report on anti-Ahamadiyya riot of 1953, “If there is one thing that has been conclusively demonstrated in this inquiry, it is that provided you can persuade the masses to believe that something they are asked to do is religiously right or enjoined by religion, you can set them to any course of action, regardless of all considerations of discipline, loyalty, decency, morality or civic sense.”

 

A proper analysis of religious extremism and its influence on military, politics and government could help us understand the problem in its depth and width. After condemning Arabs for the 9/11 terrorist incidents and invading Afghanistan in 2001, US media has been identifying Pakistan as the root-problem.

USA and their allies are waging a war against the terrorists to address their own security problem but Pakistanis have been mutilated and oppressed by these faithful warriors for ever. Educated Pakistanis must rise up against religious fanaticism if they do not want to see their country descend into a Somalia.

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The comments:

 

Imran Says:

 

May 30th, 2010 at 4:04 am

Please correct it that both the mosques belong to only one sect and that is ahmadiyyah jamaat. Some people specially mullahs are trying to spread lies like the other sect “Lahori jamaat” has severe enmity so they can be involved but they can’t quite a single evidence of violence by any of these sects. Mullahs are just trying to divert attention from them because they know they are spreading hatred against Ahmadis openly and you can see many many posters, stickers etc. carrying utter hate against Ahmadis on public places and even in public transport. Ahmadis are prime victims of target killings specially under this government rather under all governments except Musharraf’s. Many innocent men and even women have been killed in their homes or way to their homes mercilessly but not a single murderer has been caught. One thing is common in almost all these killings that these killings happened after a few days of hatred session held by “Aalmi Majlis Tahaffuz Khatm-e-Nubuwwat” near the home of to be martyred innocent targets. These wicked Mullah’s hold these sessions in the name of saving honor of prophet hood of Muhammad(PBUH). They openly motivate to kill Ahmadis in these sessions. You can view their website which is doing the same at http://www.khatm-e-nubuwwat.com Shahbaz sharif the minister of Punjab supports them in every possible way in these killings e.g. by not letting any of the killers arrested and in recent massacre by not providing any securities to Ahmadi mosques in spite of being notified by federal government of the threats coming to Ahmadis regarding these mosques. He should be arrested and punished for this criminal and intentional negligence. By the way I was inside the mosque in garhi shahu at the time of attack and witness of this act of utmost cruelty.

 

Imran Ali Says:

May 30th, 2010 at 1:01 pm

Mr. Ibrahim Sajid Malick- If you don’t remove this article I am going to lodge an FIR against you for blasphemy. You have refered to Qadiani place of worship as nauzbillah mosque. This is haram and against law in Pakistan.

You MUST REMOVE THIS ARTICLE BY June 1st, 2010.

Imran Ali,

820/C Block 2 P.E.C.H.S, Tariq Road Near Jheel Park

Karachi, Pakistan

Ph: ++92-21-4554088

 

Malik Rashid Says:

May 30th, 2010 at 1:27 pm

Imran

I stand corrected. I had picked up that misinformation on the two mosques belonging to two sects from a TV program. I apologize. Thanks.

 

Malik Rashid Says:

May 30th, 2010 at 1:31 pm

Imran Ali

My name is printed as the author of this article, in case you missed it. I strongly condemn the ghastly murders of Ahmadi-Muslims at the two mosques in Lahore on Friday. Peace.

 

Imran Ali Says:

May 30th, 2010 at 3:11 pm

You still have one to delete this article. Otherwsise FIR will be lodged under PPC 298-B and 298-C in Firozabad thana.

298-B Misuse of epithet, descriptions and titles, etc. Reserved for certain holy personages or places.

Any person of the Qadiani group or the Lahori group (who call themselves Ahmadis or by any other name) who by words, either spoken or written or by visible representation:

refers to or addresses, any person, other than a Caliph or companion of the Holy Prophet Mohammad (PBUH), as “Ameerul Momneen”, “Khalifat-ul-Momneen”, “Khalifat-ul-Muslimeen”, “Sahaabi” or “Razi Allah Anho”;

refers to or addresses, any person, other than a wife of the Holy Prophet Mohammed (PBUH), as Ummul-Mumineen;

refers to, or addresses, any person, other than a member of the family (Ahle-Bait) of the Holy Prophet Mohammed (PBUH), as Ahle-Bait; or

refers to, or addresses, any person, other than a member of the family (Ahle-Bait) of the Holy Prophet Mohammed (PBUH), as Ahle-Bait; or

refers to, or names, or calls, his place of worship as Masjid; shall be punished with imprisonment or either description for a term which may extend to three years, and shall also be liable to fine.

Any person of the Qadiani group or Lahore group, (who call themselves Ahmadis or by any other names), who by words, either spoken or written, or by visible representations, refers to the mode or from of call to prayers followed by his faith as “Azan” or redites Azan as used by the Muslims, shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to three years and shall also be liable to fine.

298-C Persons of Qadiani group, etc, calling himself a Muslim or preaching or propagating his faith. Any person of the Qadiani group or the Lahori group (who call themselves Ahmadis or any other name), who directly or indirectly, posses himself as a Muslim, or calls, or refers to, his faith as Islam, or preaches or propagates his faith, or invites others to accept his faith, by words, either spoken or written, or by visible representation or in any manner whatsoever outrages the religious feelings of Muslims, shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to three years ans shall also be liable to fine.

 

Micheal Mir Says:

May 30th, 2010 at 3:26 pm

The Ahmadis of Pakistan have been under attack for a very long time, though what happened to them and their mosques on May 28 in Lahore is quite clearly one of their worst days ever. The second amendment to the Constitution of Pakistan in 1974 excluded Ahmadis from the religion followed by the majority of Pakistanis. The amendment made this exclusion legally in that the phrase “for the purposes of the constitution or law” was used when rendering them non-Muslims. Under law, anyone who is a minority is entitled to equal protection and has the right to due process, but as our history and in fact present show all too clearly, Ahmadis have not been given this entitlement.

Friday’s events are more or less an inevitable outcome of the intolerance and bigotry found in Pakistan today – we say ‘today’ because while it began many years ago and was facilitated actively by the state during General Zia’s days, it persists and has perhaps grown stronger than ever. Those who died – the number is at least 80 and could well rise – are going to soon be forgotten and added to the hundreds of minorities who have been killed over the years by extremists and militants. In fact, one cannot help but notice the tragic irony in all of this. Just a week ago, many Pakistanis were outraged – at an offensive page on a social networking website and complained that the west should show some sensitivity to their religious feelings. And what have they done to their own minorities?

Pakistan has a group of people so crazed and fanatical in their faith that they see it as an obligation to take up arms and attack mosques and kill those present simply because of their beliefs. We can only wonder how many among us will unequivocally speak up and condemn the actions of these militants and how many will label this action as ‘anti-Islam’?

 

Majid Pasha Says:

May 30th, 2010 at 3:39 pm

Dear Brother Imran Ali,

You may have to seek help of The Cyber Crime Circle of the Federal Investigation (FIA). Since the Prevention of Electronic Crime Ordinance (PECO) does not have any provision covering the serious offence of blasphemy, therefore, this case can be referred to the Karachi Police after the accused is arrested by the FIA under Section 5 of the FIA Act. The accused (Ibrahim Sajid Malick) can be investigated by the Cyber Crime Circle of the FIA in Karachi under Section 20 of PECO.

Please send email to: dir.khi@fia.gov.pk or call: 9203082

When sending email please write “Prevention of Electronic Crime Ordinance” in the subject for speedy response. They are very good people. I am sending an email to them with this URL. Please you send it as well and get 10-15 people to send it as soon as possible.

Let’s put this hindu lover and qadiani supporter out of business.

 

Ibrahim Sajid Malick Says:

May 30th, 2010 at 9:34 pm

Mr. Ali and Mr. Pasha,

Threats usually don’t work with me. But, I am happy to dialogue and try to understand your point of view. If you have been following my blog you would agree that I am equally suspicious of all organized religions.

I am not going to delete this article. We will be writing more on this issue, Insha Allah 

 

Sara Says:

May 31st, 2010 at 1:40 am

There’s a reason why states need to be secular and Pakistan is a prime example of that.

The west separated Church & State solely because of acts like these. Unfortunately we’re condemned to repeat their mistakes. It’s time that Islam is taken out of the state and the states be made secular. That’s the only hope for this nation, otherwise we’re already in the failed states list which includes nations such as Somalia and Ethiopia. It’s only going to get worse.

 

Majid Pasha Says:

May 31st, 2010 at 3:43 am

@Ibrahim Sajid Malick: Kafir kee olad we cannot have any dialogue with you. Only thing possible for us is to punish you by the law of land. Allah will deal with you hereafter.

 

Haroon Malik Says:

May 31st, 2010 at 5:42 am

I Haroon Malik, belonging to a Sunni family in Lahore, openly refer to Ahmedis as Muslims and their place of worship as mosques and their book as Quran. I also in the strongest possible words condemn these attacks on my fellow countrymen and human beings.

Go ahead an launch an FIR against me too. You obviously can’t debate and that is why you have to resort to such threats.

 

Haroon Malik Says:

May 31st, 2010 at 5:49 am

Furthermore, Mr.Majid Pasha and Imran I think you guys are morons and I also think that all organized religions are moronic.

Reply Quote

Ali Abbas Says:

May 31st, 2010 at 6:03 am

@Imran Ali:

The law says that any person of the Qadiani group or the Lahori group cannot call his place of worship as Masjid. However there is no such restriction for a Muslim, like myself. Got it? 

Now grow up!

 

Hazrat Nkhuda Says:

May 31st, 2010 at 6:24 am

I too strongly condemn the murders of Ahmadi-Muslims at the two mosques in Lahore.

Are you going to launch an FIR against me too?

 

Zaman Khan Says:

May 31st, 2010 at 6:25 am

Yeah those Ahmedis are Muslims and they pray in mosques.

+1 for the FIR thing you are planning.

 

Wajeeh Ahmed Says:

May 31st, 2010 at 6:33 am

I strongly condemn the brutal murder of individuals belonging to a sect of Muslims and I also condemn the Taliban sympathizers on this website and their idiotic threats. Ahmedis are a sect of Muslims and their place of worship is called a mosque.

 

Adnan Says:

May 31st, 2010 at 7:51 am

Mr. Ali and Mr. Pasha,

Stooges like you are really ludicrous. Instead of deploring these attacks, you’ve got the nerve to threaten the author of this article for using certain words that you nincompoops find objectionable. People like you do the worst kind of damage to Islam by painting it as an intolerable and outdated religion.

 

Aalia Rizvi Says:

May 31st, 2010 at 9:07 am

Ahmedi Muslims are perhaps being persecuted for having rejected the idea of the Holy War, and resultantly refusing to be the puppets of the powers that be.

Whether it is ZA Bhutto or Ziaul Haq, or Maudoodi who is the actual evil mind behind all these jihadi groups and factions.

 

Major Rana Says:

May 31st, 2010 at 1:38 pm

It is useless to talk with these idiots who are committing crime in a big way without acknowledging it.

QADIANI, AHMADI, LAHORI ARE NON-MUSLIMS. IT IS A CRIME TO CALL THEM MUSLIM. THEY DONOT GO TO MASJIDS. IT IS A SIN.

(Qadiani Ahmadi) leaders and missionaries, quite astutely, claim that since they also utter the same words (Kalimah), they should be considered Muslims!

In the holy Quran, we are told:

O you who believe! When you go abroad in the cause of Allah, investigate carefully, and say not to anyone who offers you a salutation: “Thou art none of a believer!” Coveting the perishable goods of this life: with Allah are profits and spoils abundant. Even thus were you yourselves before, till Allah conferred on you His favours: Therefore carefully investigate. For Allah is well aware of all that you do.

(The Holy Quran, An-Nisa, 4:94)

Indeed, we are required to accept anyone’s claim to be a Muslim, unless his own actions and statements prove that he is not a Muslim. Obviously, declaring someone or the followers of an entire doctrine Kafir should be taken very seriously. In fact, admonishing those who have astrayed far from the teachings of Islam is a serious task entrusted to our learned scholars.

Intuitively, then, it is very significant that all Muslim denominations, organizations, scholars and nations have unanimously declared the Qadiani Ahmadi) movement outside the fold of Islam. Obviously, all these learned Muslims have done an extensive research and would not have declared Qadianism Ahmadiyyat) Kofr, if there was any doubt about its nature.

Yet, is the mere utterance of the Kalimah or the practice of the rituals of Islam enough to keep someone a Muslim, regardless of the deeds and beliefs of that person? Absolutely not. Our beloved Prophet(SAW), the most knowledgeable person regarding Islam, dealt with Kharijites (Khawarij) as unbelievers, once they purposely and persistently refuted some of the Sharia (laws) of Islam. Their perpetual observance of religious services and their persistent pronouncement of the Kalimah did not benefit them at all.

In another case, when an individual by the name of Musaylma (now known as Musaylma the Liar by Muslims) declared himself to be a non-law bearing co-prophet of Muhammad(SAW), the Prophet(SAW) ordered him to stop spreading lies. However, after the death of the Prophet(SAW), Musaylma managed to lead astray thousands of people of Banu Haneef tribe, who lived at a great distance from learned companions. All members of the Banu Haneef had declared Shahadah and were practicing the rituals of Islam, otherwise they were ignorant about the doctrines of Islam. Hazrat Abu Bakr Siddique(RA), supported by all learned companions of the Prophet(SAW), treated those followers of Musaylma who refused to accept the truth as Kafirs. (Can you also see a similarity between Musaylam and Mirza Ghulam Qadiani and his followers?)

In another case, Ali Ibn Abi Talib(RA) pronounced those “Muslims”, who insisted on calling him “Allah impersonified”, kafir and dealt with them accordingly. Obviously, anyone who breaks his covenant with Allah(SWT), by knowingly refuting the signs of Allah(SWT), ceases to remain a Muslim, regardless of whether he proclaims the Kalimah or appears to perform the rituals of Islam.

Clearly then, the mere fact that Qadianis Ahmadis) appear to utter our Kalimah or perform some of our rituals is not enough to include them in Muslim ummah. We already know that they have to accept Mirza Ghulam Qadiani as a prophet of God (Read: How do Qadianis (Ahmadiyya) differ from Muslims) and they have declared themselves as followers of a religion different from Islam (Read: What do Qadianis (Ahmadiyya) think of Muslims).

Finally, we like to point out that the Kalimah uttered by Qadianis Ahmadis) is meant to have a different meaning than those recited by Muslims. In support of this claim, we present the following writings of Mirza Ghulam Qadiani and his associates:

“I am the Maseeh of the time and I am Moses on whom God conferred His speech. I am Muhammad and Ahmad, the selected one.”

(Taryaq-ul-Qulub, P. 3/6; Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 15, P. 134)

“Muhammad is the messenger of Allah and those accompanying Him (His companions are very strict against the unbelievers). In this divine revelation, I am named Muhammad and the prophet of Allah.”

(Aik Ghalti ka Izala, P. 3; Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 18, P. 207)

“Muhammad has again come down among us. His position is an improvement on his earlier visitation. If any man wishes to see Muhammad, more competent, then he should see Ghulam Ahmad, in Qadian.”

(Al-Badr, 25 Oct. 1906)

“Twenty Six years ago, God called me Muhammad and Ahmad, in Buraheen-i-Ahmadiah.”

(Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 22, P. 502)

Obviously, when a devote and knowledgeable Qadiani confirms “Muhammad is his Servant and Messenger”, he is referring to his so-called “improved Muhammad” (God forbid), Mirza Ghulam Qadiani, and not to the beloved Prophet(SAW) of Islam.

Indeed, the utterance of Kalimah by Qadiani leaders and missionaries is only an attempt to mislead and entrap uninformed Muslims and convince the naive among their membership that they belong to a Muslim denomination. The holy Book of Islam has already passed a verdict on those who reject the Truth and utter Kalimah for their personal pleasure and to attain worldly gains:

When the Hypocrites come to thee, they say, “We bear witness that thou art indeed the Messenger of Allah.” Yea, Allah knows that thou art indeed His Messenger, and Allah bears witness that the Hypocrites are indeed liars.

(The Holy Quran, Al-Munafiqoon, 63:1)

 

Ibrahim Sajid Malick Says:

May 31st, 2010 at 4:47 pm

@Major Rana: Major (retired) Rana, thank you very much for posting your point of view on this blog. I hope others will chime-in, either in agreement or disagreement. This is what debate is all about.

Integrity, trustworthiness, benevolence, and fairness are among some qualities celebrated by almost every human religion, not because God ordained them, but because human beings cannot thrive in communities where these values are ignored.

Regards,

 

Major Rana Says:

May 31st, 2010 at 5:11 pm

@Ibrahim Sajid Malick: Holy Prophet Mohammed SAAW said:

“In My Ummah, there shall be born Thirty Grand Liars (Dajjals), each of whom will claim to be a prophet, But I am the Last Prophet; there is No Prophet after Me.”

(Abu Dawood Vol 2 p. 228; Tirmidhi Vol 2 p.45)

Ahmadis are not muslims/do not let them fool you

 

Malik Rashid Says:

May 31st, 2010 at 5:29 pm

This site was hacked and a message against its content was displayed. It is wonderful to see it back to life with a lively discussion. As long as arguments fly across, we are safe. Difference of opinion makes conversation interesting. I appreciate the administrator’s effort in bringing the site back online in such a short time. Freedom of expression cannot be withheld for long. Comments are welcome. Peace.

 

Malik Rashid Says:

May 31st, 2010 at 5:46 pm

Major Rana

I understand that the Ahmadi faith does not synchronize with your beliefs. There are many religions in the world and they are all different from each other. The conversation here is focused on the persecution that the Ahmadis have faced because their religion is different from the majority. The necessity of co-existence dictates that difference of religion, race, gender and ethnicity do not become an impediment in survival and progress of any group. A transgression from this rule of co-existence could lead to extinction of a state and collapse of society. I think Pakistanis have repeatedly failed their test of multiculturalism and tolerance. Respect. Peace.

 

Ahsaan Says:

May 31st, 2010 at 6:42 pm

Mr Rashid unfortunately you are among the breed of Pakistanis who have immigrated to America or Canada and now have discovered cable TV which shows Pakistani news and discussion all the time. So you sit around watch news all day long and then come here and write your analysis like someone who care about what happens in Pakistan. (for which you don’t give a f*ck obviously).

Anyways just wanted to point to you that never compare Somalia with Pakistan. Somalia is a great nation with a history and culture. It has the strongest economy among other African nations and no way its near to what Pakistan is. For starters read wikipidia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somalia) and don’t make your point based on the images that you see about that country on CNN.

 

Malik Rashid Says:

May 31st, 2010 at 7:20 pm

Mr. Ahsaan

Thanks for chastising me. Your criticism on my distance from reality of Pakistan because I could be living abroad might hold some water but for the f*** comment. I would not write on Pakistan if I was not concerned. I could be delusional in pretending that I know, but I wonder if you really doubt my relatedness to Pakistan. So your assumption that I migrated to America or Canada could make me a distant relative compared to you, if you still live in Pakistan. The view from distance could provide a different perspective. Why does my reference to Somalia irk you if that country is doing great? Peace.

 

Ibrahim Sajid Malick Says:

May 31st, 2010 at 8:34 pm

Yes, we are back online thanks to our Web Admin. We are monitorining IP addresses carefully to determine if are being systematically hacked or it was just an act of boredom of some young geek in Islamabad/Rawalpindi. 

Anyways- we are glad to be back and hope to continue to inform, entertain and educate.

Regards,

 

Ibrahim Sajid Malick

Shahid Says:

May 31st, 2010 at 11:19 pm

I do not approve of many posts on this blog but to the fanatic and bigot asking the author to take down referencing Ahmedi places of worship of mosque, I have the following to say:-

PPC:- 298-B(1)Any person of the Quadiani group or the Lahori group (who

call themselves ‘Ahmadis’ or by any other name who by words, either spoken or written, or by visible representation-

(d) refers to, or names, or calls, his place of worship a “Masjid”;

shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to three years, and shall also be liable to fine.

A “constitutional” Muslim, Chrisitan, Hindu, Zoroastrian, Buddhist or member of any other religious group can refer to the Ahmedi places of worship as “Mosque” without any legal problems. Perhaps the legislators never imagined that there would be brave people who could refer to these places as Mosques, for they knew that there’ll be people like you who’ll murder them anyway.

Now, I ask you to provoke your AKNTM bigots to go out and reach your bigot leaders elected on “Ulama” seats in the Senate and get the PPC amended if you want to prosecute the author. You filthy people did not fight for Pakistan yet hijacked its ideology on the very day of Independence. Go and rot, you scum!

 

Kausar s khan Says:

May 31st, 2010 at 11:29 pm

I am a Pakistani living in Karachi, and as part of a women’s rights group also part of a campaign the blasphemy law. The recent attack on the Ahmedis in Lahore has left us stunned. Our slogan now is: Pakistan was not made to practice bigotry in the name of Islam. We also believe that no one sect of Islam can declare another sect as less Islamic. We are all Muslims and free to practice our understanding, as long as we do not use it to harm others.

We need support from fellow Pakistanis abroad. We must stay connected to support building of peace and justice in Pakistan.

 

Haroon Malik Says:

May 31st, 2010 at 11:55 pm

Mr ahsan, I can tell you right now that I am in Pakistan and didn’t migrate to America or Canada or Somalia and yet I find myself in agreement with Malik Rashid

Lets get one thing absolutely certain here. What we are arguing about is weather should be allowed to call themselves Muslims or not. I am assuming that we are all in agreement that they are equal citizens of Pakistan and should not be prosecuted for having a different faith.

Saying that you are in disagreement with their claim of being a Muslim is personally fine by me. But to ink it in law and to prosecute someone who wishes to disagree with you is draconian. Some hard-line hanablis consider some accepted sects of Islam as non Islamic but even they did not go to the extent of persecution. If someone is claiming to some idea they should be allowed to plead their case. How many times have we had unbiased discussions regarding this?

Secondly, Major sahab, and to all others quoting quarn/hadith. Firstly, these verses and other stuff need to represented to a qadiani scholar who should be allowed to properly give a response. Secondly, in light of your line of argument, should we also propose that marriages between adult men and 6 year girls be allowed since it was allowed in Islam, and since it was sunnah such acts should be encouraged. No we can’t do that can we. In short giving references to quran/hadith/life and times of the prophet is not an argument.

 

Haroon Malik Says:

June 1st, 2010 at 12:13 am

one more thing Pakistan is the only country which states that ahmedis identifying themselves as Muslims should be prosecuted.

 

Kashif Says:

June 1st, 2010 at 2:34 am

I think Qadyani guys should be treated as Jew tribe of BANU QURAIZA of Mandina were treated.

Mr. Malik are you JEW ?

Reply Quote

34.     Aalia Rizvi Says:

June 1st, 2010 at 2:42 am

@ Kahisf

Having said that, you are apparently declaring your support for the beheading of someone who has surrendered? How cruel, archaic and barbaric. Another Taliban apologist.

However, the secular voices of Pakistan cannot be suppressed as easily as you think. But let me also point out to you, that by name calling you are only resorting to the strawman argument, which will not get you anywhere. Only reveal your true intellect.

 

Majid Pasha Says:

June 1st, 2010 at 7:28 am

WATCH AND SEE… WE WILL GET YOUR SITE BANNED IN PAKISTAN.

IBRAHIM SAJID MALICK IS A CRIMINAL.

http://www.pta.gov.pk/media/determinatin_samw.pdf

READ THE DETERMINATION OF PTA AGAINST SAMW . HE WAS RUNNING VOIP IN PAKISTAN. ILLEGAL ACTIVITY.

TAKE THIS ARTICLE DOWN AND APOLOGIZE.

 

Akbar Shah Says:

June 1st, 2010 at 7:32 am

BUll shittt……somewhat pro Jewish or Indian thoughts. Idiot someday read the ideology of Pakistan. Its Islamic republic of Pakistan. it was created over sacrifice of 5 million ppl. slogan was PAKISTAN ka matlab kai #La ILAH ha ILalah#

yeh we know ppl using youth for suicide bombing is wrong ,,, and that is NOT Islam. But Ahmedis are NON MUSLIMS>

Someday return to HOLY QURAN u will find its gives all the solutions to all the problems we are facing today

its time to start learning what is written in the HOLY QURAN

 

Malik Rashid Says:

June 1st, 2010 at 7:54 am

Majid Pasha

Do you condone the recent murder of Ahmadi-Muslims at Friday-prayer congregations in Lahore? Instead of posting material against the owner of this web-site, please answer my question.

 

Kamran farooqi Says:

June 1st, 2010 at 7:55 am

@Majid Pasha: Great work brother. Now we have this surkha by the balz. He is choor like Zardari. He has no right talking about Islam and Pakistan.

TO ALL OTHERS WHO HAVE COMMENTED ON HIS SUPPORT:

Pakistan was created solely on Islam and was made to be an Islamic country- complete and full with no room for any other ideas or religion except Islam. We should actually discourage tourists from non-Muslim countries and strip non-Muslims of Pakistani citizenship- Ahmadis and Ismailis included. We should try to emulate the model of Saudi/Sudan/Somalia and strive to become like them.

Ahmadis and Ismalis are NON-MUSLIMS. GET THEM OUT OF PAKISTAN. OR CAPTURE THEM ALIVE AND ENSLAVE THEM UNTIL THEY ACCEPT ISLAM.

 

Laeeq Ahmad Says:

June 1st, 2010 at 10:32 am

“@Ibrahim Sajid Malick:

@Major Rana: Major (retired) Rana, thank you very much for posting your point of view on this blog. I hope others will chime-in, either in agreement or disagreement. This is what debate is all about. Integrity, trustworthiness, benevolence, and fairness are among some qualities celebrated by almost every human religion, not because God ordained them, but because human beings cannot thrive in communities where these values are ignored.Regards,

Well said Malick! I am a big fan of yours and I read every word that you write. Keep the pressure on these idiots.

 

sohail Says:

June 2nd, 2010 at 4:41 am

It is our bad luck we are having “KHOOOTEY SIKAY” since the day Pakistan was created by Allah. Quaid-e-Azam’s vision is not hidden, nor the aim to create an independent Muslim State. Khootey Sikay like you always try to misguide the ignorant people to walk on your Dajjali Path. You yourself know that you calling Ahmedi’s Muslim is a sin. Will you live forever? Will you never Stand on the Day of Judgment? by writing this article to whom you are showing your loyalty?

 

Haroon Malik Says:

June 2nd, 2010 at 5:48 am

@karmran farooqi

quote from Kamran’s post

“Pakistan was created solely on Islam and was made to be an Islamic country- complete and full with no room for any other ideas or religion except Islam.”

I would like you to prove that. I state my case with Jinnah’s address to the constituent assembly “In due course of time Muslims will cease to be Muslims, Hindus will cease to be Hindus and Christians will cease to be Christians, not in the religious sense for that is a personal matter of each individual, … to emerge as citizens of one nation Pakistan”

“We should actually discourage tourists from non-muslim countries and strip non-muslims of Pakistani citizenship”

Why? They are tax paying citizens of the country. they have equal rights.

“- Ahmadis and Ismailis included. We should try to emulate the model of Saudi/Sudan/Somalia and strive to become like them.”

Saudi model? are you sure? Have you been to saudia arab? i have!. do you know how the royal family fucntions there? do you know what kind of islam it conforms to? do you know that no mullah over there of any “place of worship” (i refuse to call Sunni/Shia/Wahabi places of worship as mosques on this thread) are not allowed to say anything unless they get it approved?

Sudan? Dafur … are you sure?

Somalia? I dont wanna die hungry.

 

Haroon Malik Says:

June 2nd, 2010 at 5:56 am

@akbar shah

quote from akber’s post

“idiot some day read the idealogy of pakistan.”

have you read it? I have read my post above and look at the snippet I copied from Jinnahs address, and one more thing did you know that mullahs like yourself were against the creation of pakistan. They were with the congress. Moududi reffered to Quiad-e-Azam as Kafir-e-Azam.

“It was created over sacrifice of 5 million ppl. slogan was PAKISTAN ka matlab kai #La ILAH ha ILalah#”

Ahmedis believe in the “La ILAH ha ILalah” part btw. they also beleive in “Mohammad-ur-Rasool-allah”.

“yeh we know ppl using youth for suicide bombing is wrong ,,, and that is NOT Islam. ”

I am sure the suicide bomber would disagree with you on that. A says B is not the real Islam, B says A is not the real Islam. And along comes C and says Both of them are not “real Islam” … so will the real Islam please stand up.

“But Ahmedis are NON MUSLIMS”

You have to back that up with some evidence no? what actually gives you the right to say that. I say you’re not a Muslim.

“Someday return to HOLY QURAN u will find its gives all the solutions to all the problems we are facing today”

Ahan I would really really like to bebate you on that. Can you elaborate the problems which we are facing today and exactly which verse in the quran has solutions to those problems.

“its time to start learning what is written in the HOLY QURAN”

been there done that and rejected it… you should catch up

 

Haroon Malik Says:

June 2nd, 2010 at 6:09 am

@ Major Rana

I posted this earlier seems like you missed it so I am posting it again. i would like to your view since your the only one who is calm and is supporting the stance that qadianis cannot be called muslims.

Major sahab, and to all others quoting quarn/hadith. Firstly, these verses and other stuff need to represented to a qadiani scholar who should be allowed to properly give a response. Secondly, in light of your line of argument, should we also propose that marriages between adult men and 6 year girls be allowed since it was allowed in Islam, and since it was sunnah such acts should be encouraged. No we can’t do that can we. In short giving references to Quran/hadith/life and times of the prophet is not an argument.

One more thing, is it awkward that we are the only country in the world which has a law that states that qadianis cannot refer to themselves as Muslims and if they do they will be punished.

I would also like you to define what a Muslim is. Becuase I know for a fact that Qadianis believe in no god but Allah (La ilaha Illallah) and they believe that Mohammad was his prophet (Mohammed-ur-Rasool-allah) and they also beleive that Mohammad was the last law-bearing prophet (I guess many of you don’t know that)

 

Malik Rashid Says:

June 2nd, 2010 at 7:52 am

The business of producing ‘Kafir’ has spread so much that every individual claiming to be a Muslim could find two persons calling them kaafir.

An article by Mohammad Hanif

Published in Urdu at bbc.com

KAFIR FACTORY

To prove yourself a Pakistani citizen, when you fill out application form for an identity card, you are asked a question that is not asked of any Muslim living in any other Muslim country.

You are not asked if you are mentally healthy, whether all your limbs are intact, if you are a thief or smuggler, number of rapes you committed, ever paid tax, consider Jinnah as Quaid-e-Azam(great leader) or Kaafir-e-Azam(biggest infidel), whether you send your kids to school or drop them at a market place to beg, you believe in socialism or Islamic sharia, you think of Pak-army as Pakistan’s asset or the thief of nation’s assets. You are not required to prove if you are a Hindu, Christian, Parsee(Zoroastrian), Sikh or idol worshiper. The oath-form that is a part of national identity card application, the one we have been filling out for the last 25 years with our signature or thumb-impression, seeks only one sworn testimony that I am not an Ahmadi, not a Qadiani, nor do I belong to their sub-sect, the Lahori group.

Why does a small sect (one that loves prayers, beards and sermons) scare us so much? How do those who say ‘Assalam-o-alaikum’(Muslim greeting), ‘Bismillah’(begin in god’s name) or pray in mosques, endanger our faith to such a degree that somebody could languish in jail for saying ’salam’, ‘bismillah’ or ‘mosque’?

How is it that no other Islamic country found their faith or society endangered by this evil spreading out of a village named ‘Qadian’?

The attackers of Ahmadi mosques in Lahore were so young that they would’nt know Ahmadis used to be a Muslim sect before 1974. 35 years have solidified our faith so much that not only we brand them infidel but call them ‘kaafir’ of the worst kind.

When we refer to Ahmadi mosque as ‘a place of worship’, we save ourselves from a 3year rigorous imprisonment by following the law of the land, and insinuate that this place is not a temple, church, gurdwara or a synagogue; it is a place of worship where wild pagans and non-believers make fun of believers in god and prophet. You might be shocked that Ahmadis think they are superior muslims, above all others.

Above is a partial translation of Mohammad Hanif’s article “Kafir Factory”, posted at

http://www.bbc.co.uk/urdu/pakistan/2010/05/100529_hanif_colmn.shtml

Reply Quote

45.     Malik Rashid Says:

June 2nd, 2010 at 10:54 am

Translation of the rest of the article ‘Kafir Factory”

Folks who harbor a soft corner for Ahmadis might blame Maulana Maudoodi and Bhutto Shaheed for the situation. True, Maudoodi and other Maulanas recorded such defeat in the 1970 elections that nobody after them could claim such act, but within 4 years of their defeat they made history by manipulating the elected parliament into doing something that no military dictator or Amir-ul-Momineen(Head of the faithful) had ever accomplished.

Deserving of contemplation is the fact how something that could not be done in the whole Islamic world, nor did most of the ‘lost’ Muslim souls ever thought about, became possible in this god-gifted country?

Before Pakistan came into existence, Mohammad Ali Jinnah, addressing a public meeting said that he wanted this country to be a laboratory where Islamic ideas could be experimented upon. This saying of Quaid-e-Azam is taught in Social Studies and History books at every school.

Successful experiments at laboratory turn out products that are mass-produced. The successful experiment of producing Kafir in the 70s did not stop there. 80s and 90s saw emergence of the slogan, ‘Kafir, kafir, Shia Kafir’(Shias are dis-believers). Doctors, teachers, lawyers, traders and intellectuals belonging to Shia faith were so brutally murdered that Ahmadis must have exclaimed, “Thanks god, we are Kafir, not Shia.”

Since then, the business of producing Kafir has expanded so much that every citizen who believes to be a ‘Musalman’ could find two musalmans who think of him/her as kafir. Those who say “Ya Rasool Allah” believe that chanters of “Ya Hussain” are kafir. Those who pray with their hands folded think that those who let their hands loose during prayers are kafir. Those who wish their offerings at Daata Saheb, consider whirlers at Bullhay Shah as Kafir.

The army used to believe that Taliban are ‘Momin’(devout believers), but now they think of them as kafir, or, lead us to believe so. Punjab’s government thinks Punjabi speaking Taliban are Musalman and Pushto speaking Taliban are Kafir. Is this a country, o’lord, or a kafir producing factory!

When we declare somebody a kafir by signing or thumb-impressing an identity card form, we open a gate of fatwa(edict) against ourselves.

Since those killed were the worst kafir, praying for their blessing could be seen as ‘kufr’(disbelief), but the least we could do is pray for survival of those still alive.

Above is a translation of Mohammad Hanif’s article “Kafir Factory”, posted at

http://www.bbc.co.uk/urdu/pakistan/2010/05/100529_hanif_colmn.shtml

 

Aalia Rizvi Says:

June 2nd, 2010 at 3:47 pm

@ Kamran Farooqi and the rest of the fanatics or as I love calling them MUSLIM ZIONISTS in their Zaid Hionist fashion

“We should try to emulate the model of Saudi/Sudan/Somalia and strive to become like them.”

Being a woman, I reject Saudia, where they do not respect women and treat them as only sex objects. But perhaps you would not have any problem with that, as you do not consider women as equal citizens anyway. If you want to follow the model of Sudan, why not go there yourself and try living it out? And while you are at it, also give a shot to Somalia.

“Ahmadis and Ismalis are NON-MUSLIMS. Get Them Out Of Pakistan. Or Capture Them Alive And Enslave Them Until They Accept Islam.”

Why stop at only Ahmedis and Ismailis? Why not include Shia as well, like that retarded website of the Hasht Chaar Yaar claims? (Which in my view should be banned, after all when facebook can be curtailed, there is no harm doing the same to such sites as HCY that spew out hatred.)

You follow some bigoted school of thought that would consider any other school of thought as the wrong one. You people would love to go back in history and molest 6-year-old girls in the name of sunnah perhaps?

P.S. A lot of big businesses and industries are owned by Ismailis, Ahmedis and Shias. Try getting rid of them, and then run your economy on their alms from abroad if you can. But apparently, most of those ventures would be spoofed up in Jihad against the same people who helped you. It is like the dog who bites the feeding hand. (Although am sure if a dog had a tongue, it would have voiced its abhorrence at being compared to you guys.)

 

http://ibrahimsajidmalick.com/faithful-killers-fatal-worship/1444/

 

URL: http://www.newageislam.com/debating-islam/faithful-killers,-fatal-worship-/d/2957


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