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Islam,Terrorism and Jihad (31 Jul 2008 NewAgeIslam.Com)



WRITE BACK: Defending Democracy

 

Outlook newsmagazine’s publication of an edited version of the e-mail sent by the so-called 'Indian Mujahideen' and a response to it by an Indian Muslim academic teaching in the US has generated unprecedented interest in the issue. As promised, the magazine has published another response by another academic and the readers’ comments on it. We are reproducing the same courtesy Outlook on Internet. Editor, NewAgeIslam.com

 

 

Waquar Ahmed, an Indian, a professor at Mount Holyoke College in South Hadley, Massachusetts, USA writes:

 

Ideologies similar to those of the 'Indian Mujahideen' or criminals who masquerade as leaders should not have any space in Gandhi's India, in Azad's India. The time has come to work towards the prevention of disorder and catastrophe, and not merely towards their control.

 

Lately, the spate of violence in India that has led to the loss of (and harm to) innocent lives in Bangalore and Ahmedabad is depressing. Such acts of terror can only be the handiwork of sick minds with perverted ideologies.

 

Even as the debate as to how to tackle terrorism in India rages on, I was delighted to read Mr Ajai Sahni's argument that "the gravest threat to India's security is not Pakistan, not the Inter Services Intelligence, not terrorism, but the limitless acts of omission, the venality and the ineptitude of the political and administrative executive, and the complete absence of accountability in the top echelons of government." 

 

But I was disappointed to read his entire article. Certainly, India's legal system, the police and the political executives have left much to be desired of them, and in a way, failed all Indians. But what Mr Sahni refers to is the failure on the management front -- management of terrorism/crime.

 

The management aspect of terrorism in India simply addresses the issues at a very superficial level. Management of terrorism may be more successful at one point of time-space and a failure at the other -- but effective, or otherwise, management cannot transform structures in the society that make poor Muslims in India easy cannon fodder for international terrorist groups. What we need to tackle, instead, is the problem at its roots.

 

How different is India from a typical failed state? Political leaders, who carry out chariot processions spreading hate, leaving behind a trail of riots, leading, engineering and inciting mobs to demolish mosques, roam free in our society. Political leaders who lead and facilitate genocide/massacre continue to remain in power.

 

To be a successful state, the rule of law should prevail and criminals, whether they engineer riots or kill innocent people by carrying out bomb blasts, should be treated as criminals. Even as Serbian leaders/criminals are being tried in the international courts and put behind bars, for similar crimes they committed in the past, criminals in India remain above the law. Are we living in a civilized society?

 

When certain groups of criminals remain above the law, it creates a sense of hopelessness amongst the not so equal in the society -- in this case, the Indian Muslims. It is not a justification and it should not be taken as condoning, even obliquely, these recent blasts or indeed any other terrorist act, but it is this sense of hopelessness and despair that creates ideal grounds for misguided, but home-grown terrorists who want to take the law into their own hand.

 

In addition, I do not want to categorize Hindus or Muslims in India as homogenous categories -- both these communities have had their share of lunatics, as well as individuals with character and integrity. In fact, Mahatma Gandhi, a devout Hindu himself, taught us all the best lessons of secularism and non-violence, as did Maulana Azad, a devout Muslim. Ideologies similar to those of the ‘Indian Mujahideen’ or criminals who masquerade as leaders should not have any space in Gandhi’s India, in Azad’s India.

 

Terrorists do not deserve any sympathy because they hold innocent people hostage to fear and violence and cause death and destruction of those who probably are as helpless as those whom they claim to represent. Who or what gives them the right to be representatives of the community they claim to represent? But then, it is high time that we take stock of this grave problem that confronts our county, and in turn, confront it at its root.

 

The best means to overcome the circle of violence that has been unleashed, is to ensure a just society, a society where all criminals, irrespective of religion and political stature, are held accountable for their crimes. To conclude, I would like to quote Giorgio Agamben, a noted philosopher: "It is not that democracies should cease to defend themselves, but the defence of democracy demands today a change of political paradigms and not a world civil war which is just the institutionalisation of terror. Maybe the time has come to work towards the prevention of disorder and catastrophe, and not merely towards their control."

 

Waquar Ahmed, an Indian, is a professor at Mount Holyoke College in South Hadley, Massachusetts, USA

 

 

COMMENTS:

 

 Defending Democracy         YOUR TAKE?

 

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 10:05:10PM (IST)

Gaurav Gupta - do not drop words like sickular and dumb. I never said that the original muslims were not from Arabia. I said that the majority are not from Arabia, they are converts. You are probably true about the fact that some of them are not true to democracy and multi-culturalism. That is true for enough hindus too, the percentage may be different. My questions to you are the following, will you find out all the people in every religion who are not accepting this and throw them out or only the muslims?

 

The muslims in India were offered the opportunity to move to Pakistan and refused it, what if they get a chance to another country and they refuse it, are you going to force them?

 

Next, I agree that spacewise you are right that there might be a lot of room in central asia and saudi arabia. However, having space does not imply that the countries will accept people. You might say that the Saudis are racist frauds and they are that, but no country in the world is immigrant friendly at the moment. This is especially true for central asia. Having lived in Israel I know that those countries are pretty bad. Saudi Arabia may be the keeper of the holy places, but in other things, they are pretty bad. The Pakistanis in Saudi Arabia are treated shabbily. So, being a muslim in Saudi Arabia does not imply good treatment. There are people who have been there 3 generations and have not become citizens. In the past, during the time of the British Empire, it was easy to move around and settle in another part of the world. Things were in a state of flux. It is more rigid now, one cannot get citizenship easily in another country. That is what I pointed out.

 

PRAKASH

SAN FRANCISCO   UNITED STATES

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 10:02:18PM (IST)

RSS had penetrated the police,intelligence and judiciary long time back,thanks to BJP.In fact there are officers and intelligence agencies who target Muslims periodiacly.If one goes by the logic that who is the beneficiary in India the finger points to Sangh Parivar and BJP.Muslims are the biggest losers and there is no reason for them to indulge in these heinous acts.Whenever the state Govts are not BJP there are either there are no bombs or in low key because there is always the danger of getting caught.This is the reason they do not dare to explode or orchestrate bomb blasts in TamilNadu or in Kerala.Though Pakistan has a role in some blasts most of these should point out to Sangh parivar.In Malegan when two persons were killed when bombs exploded it was revealed that they were being made by Bajrang Dal activists.Consequently no action was taken till the court ordered an enquiry on a petition by the Muslims.Though the result of this enquiry is awaited everybody knows that none among the Sangh Parivar will be charged.There are many incidents and none of this will come out but only innocent Muslims will be framed.Modi has killed many innocent Muslims and petty criminals under the guise that they were about to assasinate him!Congress too has RSS ideologues among them who prevent their ministers from acting against RSS.With an inept leadership Congress will not act and Muslims will continue to suffer.Democracy can be defended only by law enforcement and by rendering justice.

 

NASAR

RALEIGH   USA

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 09:44:07PM (IST)

Prakash of SFo :

 

You seem to be either deliberately mis - reading history ( would that make you a "sick"ular ? ) or are just playing dumb. The original Moslems in India were from Arabia ( Bin Qasim landing in the Sindh in the 9 th century AD ) and later from Afghanistan, C. Asia and Persia ). The overwhelming majority of Indian Moslems today may be genetically not very different from Hindus but as events keep proving over and over again, culturally and emotionally they are still much closer to the Arabian peninsula - the birthplace of their religion. They have not accepted the responsibilities of democracy ( tolerance, dialogue over force, multi - culturism, as well as the constant bickering, the compromises and under - handed deal making, rather than resorting to totalitarian violence, that greases the way ) but want all its rights ( and the secular appeasers keep spoiling them with goodies ). On the other hand due to their inborn fear of physical danger / cowardice Hindus are naturally inclined towards compromise / democracy. Moslems, even the Indian ones, are a world apart from Hindus and are incompatible.

 

From events around the world it is amply clear that Islam and diversity / multi - culturalism / democracy are incompatible. Even if the Palestinians were to get their justified demands, there would still be a lot of extremism in Islam, because the abhorrence of democracy intrinsic to Islam combined with petro-dollars is a volatile mixture.

 

The East coast of Saudi Arabia, Africa and Central Asia are still empty and a tota of about a million sq miles in these areas would be enough to resettle all 150 million of Indian Moslems. African countries like Tanzania, Mozambique are certainly very pliable as are the various "Stan"s of C. Asia. Nouveau riche Hindus like the Ambanis and the Mittals should pitch in with their billions.

 

And if Saudi Arabia refuses to take in fellow Moslems then they would be exposed as the racist frauds that they are, rather than the devout " keeper of the two holy places " that they are always harping on.

 

GAURAV GUPTA

SAN LUIS OBISPO   UNITED STATES

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 09:32:05PM (IST)

Here is a practical way to defend democracy -

 

http://www.ndtv.com/con...8&ch=633531357646213750

 

India is going hitech. I am betting that futuristic hollywood gizmos will be the norm in India in a couple of years. My alarm clock will wake me up with a friendly female voice reminding me to stay away from crowded places and not to forget my kevlar vest. Then when I boil milk in the microwave the microwave will give me the latest terror alert status - just like weather forecast. Heck, even the terrorists might enter in a partnership with the police and local authorities and prewarn where the bombs will go on a given day. There will be advisory and traffic rerouting devices instructing me to take the least terror prone path to office. And finally when I reach office, over the coffee machine I will hear a couple of guys talking that the a third colleague lost his limb in a blast the previous evening on his way back home. The three of us will then chide him for being so callous to have walked into harm's way when the benevolent terrorists had warned everyone earlier. And then there will be a bang. The coffee machine was programmed to blast off after serving 541 cups of coffee and none of us paid attention to the big LED display. Such is life. Or death. Or whatever.

 

SRIRAM

CHENNAI   INDIA

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 08:44:30PM (IST)

Gaurav Gupta, while a lot of muslims might be sincere about their religion, I do not think that it is true that their forefathers come from Arab countries. Most of them are people who are probably converts (voluntarily or by force) during the Mughal Empire, so their forefathers are from India. So, where would you expect them to go, they are not wanted anywhere. Despite what you think it is not like the Jews, where a country like Israel will take them. The muslims are not accepted by any country now, they will not accept immigrants easily, especially not such a large number. So, what is the solution?

 

PRAKASH

SAN FRANCISCO   UNITED STATES

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 08:07:30PM (IST)

 

"Arabs in the old city of Jerusalam are being scared by rats used by Israelis to drive them away," claimed Jerusalam newspaper reports by news agency Wafa.

 

Persecution complex of the Muslim kind at its best!!

 

 

ASHOK

BANGALORE   INDIA

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 08:03:46PM (IST)

 

There's a large in today's newspaper where one Sikh Congressi has lauded Smt. Ranjeet Ranjan of LJP party for voting for sikh PM and thereby for the sentiments of Sikh religion.

 

No wonder, Congress is sick-ular?

 

ASHOK

BANGALORE   INDIA

 

 

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 07:56:47PM (IST)

The Gandhi - Nehru version of Secularism was insincere, just a ploy to appease Moslems that had failed miserably by 1947. Parroting their silly platitudes for the next 60 years has not done any good. Even educated Indian Moslems like Faruki / Anwar feel closer to the orthodoxies of Islam and as one can see from his responses are defensive towards the Hindu majority of India. Instead of persisting in the vain hope of reconciliation, the people of India should consider making it easy for Indian Moslems ( whole families ) to migrate to Moslem countries e,g. the Arabian peninsula ( where their forefathers came from ) and Africa. Hindus should collect funds to offer incentives. Hindus like the Ambani brothers ( and others in their bracket ) would do a great service if they invest in setting up resettlement colonies for Indian Moslems outside India. e,g Central Asia, the Arab Peninsula & coastal Africa.

 

GAURAV GUPTA

SAN LUIS OBISPO   UNITED STATES

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 07:44:57PM (IST)

Anwar,

 

"We don't let Allah, Islam, Q'ran or the local Maulvi decide who is Hindu or who is not.

Nor does one's ability to read Ramayan 5 to 50 times a day or bodily hair any criteron for deciding who is Hindu or not?

 

None of the above are absolutes, and they change with time and place for both Hindus and Muslims."

 

Are these symbols demanded by Islam so simple to negate?

 

Havn't you come across funny looking but bearded Paki cricket players saying Allah 5 times in each sentence?

 

Can you or any Muslim claim to be a Muslim if you don't keep beard, wear skull-cap and do 5-time Namaaz and Rozas?

 

These symbols of Islam are absolute and so don't fool yourself, as you don't fool us at all, by negating this to show your moderate Muslim image?

 

Go and check your women's burqa immediately!!

 

Did you raise your backside the 5th time to offer it to .. today?

 

Bad Muslim!

 

ASHOK

BANGALORE   INDIA

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 07:32:04PM (IST)

LalitMB,

 

Forgot this point. We all know how many problems Pakistan and Bangladesh are creating for us. If there are several Pakistan type states spread over entire India, imagine the havoc Muslim terrorists would create.

 

Appeasing Muslims by handing over territories to them, isn't going to solve the problem. It is only going to embolden them. What was the first thing that Muslims did after getting Pakistan, they attacked India in 1947-48.

 

Offering territories to Muslims is only going to delay the final confrontation between Hindus and Muslims. Rather than shying away from confrontation, Hindus should start preparing for it. Declare India a Hindu state. Make internal and external security a top priority, like Israel. India should get ready with nuclear tipped missiles pointed at Mecca and Madina, as warning to trouble making Muslims the world over. If Hindus in India are pushed around too much, they should think about retaliating and taking fight to countries which support and finance terror in India namely Pakistan, Bangladesh and Saudi Arabia.

 

J

BANGALORE   INDIA

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 07:31:23PM (IST)

This is a very stale and worn out argument,and almost sounds like a defence of muslim terrorism.Ask any poor person in India,and there are more than 30 crore of them,he will say that his voice is not heard,he is discriminated against and there is no redressal of his woes.Does that make them take to the gun?Yes it does some of them like naxalites but they don't fight in the name of religion.There can be sympathy for naxalites but not for those who call themselves Jihadi's.It is high time that people like the author of this piece stop justifying the Jihadi's.

 

K.C.SHARMA

DELHI   INDIA

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 07:23:05PM (IST)

Khushi Ram,

 

"Abuse apart Sir your solutions to eradicate Islamic terrorism ?

 

And time frame ?"

 

100 years or Islamisation of India, whichever takes place first.

 

ASHOK

BANGALORE   INDIA

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 07:05:39PM (IST)

Lalit,

 

After every act of terror, we all somehow believe that this is a temporary aberration and things would settle down. There’s the usual lecturing from the govt to maintain the peace, law n order and that we would not tolerate such cowardly acts, there’s a bit of political tu-tu main-main and both the govt and the opposition go back to their stated positions in a state of denial.

 

So was it in J&K, Jaipur, Indian Embassy in Afghanistan, Karnataka and now Gujarat.

 

Nothing has changed nor will anything change and we will keep pretending that resilience of Hindus towards these acts of terrorism is enormous and their patience and tolerance unlimited.

 

In fact, evidence shows this to be true also.

 

If they ever try to show their anger and retaliate, we seculars would bracket them with murderous Gujaratis and shame them into believing that whatever is happening is due to some past karmas, some Hindu causes of atrocities in the past and we being a majority should feel guilty for such minor transgressions by our Muslim brethren who are otherwise so poor, uneducated and angry with us.

 

So, don’t worry and be happy – and feel lucky – that you are not the victim and be ready to atone for your past acts.

 

Soon, realism is an inevitable casualty and irrational exuberance of the Shining India type surfaces. Collateral damage is soon forgotten as mere statistics and everybody pretends as if nothing happened at all.

 

No lessons are learnt.

 

Gandhi paid for his pandering in 1947, Nehru paid for this false euphoria in 1962, Vajpayee in 1999 and MMS or his follower PM would surely pay in due course of time as the nation continues to sleep-walk into the mine-field being set by Islamic Jehadi forces within and from outside the country.

 

The seculars would pretend false notion of bhai-chara and those pointing out the harsh facts of Islamic Jehad would be continued to be called communal, bigots and fear mongers, till another Pakistan is carved out of our motherland and we like the famous song would say:

 

Karvan gujar gaya, gubar dekhte rahey!

 

Still, the problem would fester in truncated India after Pakistan II; artificial feeling of alienation, persecution and discrimination would remain and we would start preparing for Pakistan III, IV and so on.

 

 

ASHOK

BANGALORE   INDIA

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 07:01:24PM (IST)

The problem with Waquar Ahmed is that in his indirect references also, he cites only those, who harmed Muslim Indians as criminals and those, who harmed Indians of other religions are not mentioned at all. One can try to agree with theortic formulations in general. But the sub-text is a narrative, which speaks for and justifies Jehadis. In India, even after 1947, crimes have been committed against Indians of all religions by Indians of all religions. In his indirect examples Waquar looks at the crimes against Indians, who are Muslims, and steadfastly ignores all the others. This shows as if all crimes are committed against one community. Hence such writings justify indirectly the killings of innocents of other religions by jehadis.

 

A.K.AGGARWAL

AHMEDABAD   INDIA

 

 

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 06:57:41PM (IST)

Ganesan, I think that you misunderstand me. I have no problem with you criticizing anyone. I do not have a particular admiration for Gandhi or Nehru, to be clear. I am just pointing out facts about other leaders that are not in the open. It is a free country and you are free to express any opinions. That is fair, surely. I am not a muslim and am pretty neutral about this. However, I do have an interest in history and would not like to twist facts when it suits my purpose. I hope that that make it clear.

 

PRAKASH

SAN FRANCISCO   UNITED STATES

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 06:32:38PM (IST)

ganesan bhai

 

its typical of muslims.

 

when some one made a cartoon about mohhammet, millions of muslims went on a rampage.

 

muslims from childhood are not taught tolerance, to listen to other views.

 

any opposeing view is fascist, sanghi etc.

 

faruki is the best example of this. however everywhere muslims behave in a similar manner.

 

as dr sultan said, muslims are unable to reason.

they take to abuse and violence instead. its similar to behaviour of primates.

 

 

LALITMB

KALUNDBORG   DENMARK

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 06:24:15PM (IST)

Prakash:

 

Just to make one thing clear. I have respect for certain people. But I dont cry and whine when they get criticized. It is part of the process. A political leader puts himself to be criticized when he stands above the crowd. Some attacks will be fair and some will be unfair. I dont get worked out over this.

 

I have never understood the extremely thin skin of supporters of Gandhi and Nehru. Any criticism is hate mongering, demolishing secularism etc etc. Gandhi is never to be criticized. Why? You people are behaving like Shiv Sena when the issue is Shivaji.

 

GANESAN

NJ   USA

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 06:10:23PM (IST)

Faruki:

"You are on a rampage. You have demolished Gandhi and Nehru...."

 

HAVE demolished?? I wish life was so easy. There is a lot of work to be done to demystify Gandhi and Nehru.

 

GANESAN

NJ   USA

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 06:09:58PM (IST)

Lalitmb,

 

I also know that it is a remote possibility that Muslims will ever leave India. If Muslims don't leave India, we should follow Americans by making large Guantanamo bay type facilities to house trouble making Muslims. We should launch massive drives to reconvert them to Hinduism.

 

If nothing else succeeds, I prefer a final war to finish rather than handing over even an inch of Indian territory to appease Muslims.

 

J

BANGALORE   INDIA

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 06:02:04PM (IST)

Prakash:

"Ganesan - the main reason for your set of leaders is that you have not looked deeper into them."

 

Go ahead and look deep into them. What are who prevents you?

I dont care. And I know a lot more about Kamaraj and Rajaji than the incidents you have mentioned.

 

Why do you get upset when someone applies the same yardstick to Gandhi as is applied to a Savarkar or Tilak or anyone else?

 

GANESAN

NJ   USA

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 06:01:33PM (IST)

"Political leaders, who carry out chariot processions spreading hate, leaving behind a trail of riots, leading, engineering and inciting mobs to demolish mosques, roam free in our society"

 

you are correct. politians like rajeev gandhi, faruk abdulla are considered as heroes for their bravery in supporting genocides against sikhs and hindus.

 

NAMO2

LONDON   UNITED KINGDOM

 

aily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 05:28:11PM (IST)

j

 

muslims are not going to leave india, or any

nonmuslim country when they have arrived once.

thats a fact.

 

in view of this the best would be to encourage muslims to live in select areas, where they have the freedom to devlop modern townships, modern

villages. this would a great opportunity to do better for themselves, and be away from the growing hostile hindu communities.

 

it would be good for hindus as well.less friction from muslims praying on streets every friday, and the middleeastern scenario. hindus

will feel less paranoid as well, and there would be a feeling of peace and joi de vivre.

 

outlook rants and raves would be about other more pleasant topics-not the eternal mutual bashing.

 

kashmir valley would go to muslims, jammu and ladakh to hindus and budhists.

 

our quarrel with pakistan would end. all the money wasted in fighting for kashmir could be used to develop india.

 

a new ,clear strategy is required.let us see where arundhati roy, the bidwais, and the kuldip nayars will go. i hope they leave, but i am damned sure they will not.a pity.

 

 

LALITMB

KALUNDBORG   DENMARK

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 05:05:24PM (IST)

This article proves what I fear: there are very very very few genuinely moderate Muslims.

 

If a feeling of injustice is seen as explaining resort to murderous terrorism, why should Hindus not resort to such acts because of the marginalisation of their community by Muslims in Kashmir and Assam?

 

The truth is, many Muslims reso

 

YAKOOB MUSA

CHENNAI   INDIA

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 04:15:21PM (IST)

Lalitmb,

 

>>political settlements will have to be made, so

that muslims and hindus live apart in india, as

far as it is possible.

 

Isn't that why Pakistan and Bangladesh were created. I am not prepared for Pakistan 2.0, whatever may be the cost. I prefer that India should declare itself a Hindu country and Muslim who don't want to live in India, should be sent to Muslim country of their choice. Strong message needs to be sent to Muslims to put-up or shut-up.

 

J

BANGALORE   INDIA

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 03:57:12PM (IST)

ganesan bhai

 

azad was a pet of the congress party. in rude terminology he was the house nigger.

 

if he had not been there, congress would have had another in his place. maybe someone like faruki.

 

exactly what were his educational qualifications. besides haveing a pious dogmatic person of any religion as the education minister is farsical.

 

just look at the mess made by such ministers in muslim countries.

 

LALITMB

KALUNDBORG   DENMARK

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 03:48:42PM (IST)

faruki

 

secularism is another word of being promuslim, and refrain from saying anything against muslims .

 

in your book many pakistani, western writers are antiseculars.

 

as i have said the devide between muslims and the nonmuslim world is unbridgeable. it shows clearly in the hate comments in this forum.

 

jinnah -a god like figure in pakistan- spoke about it.he was very correct.

 

the congress should not have had lofty dreams of wanting muslims to stay on in india. both hindus and muslims have suffered from this. india has many problems, but this problem has riven india apart.

 

this problem is acute in some states in india.

only in bengal or assam will there be fewer problems.

 

you faruki i am sure have a natural preference for muslims, islam and muslim culture.

 

we nonmuslims feel the same way.

 

political settlements will have to be made, so that muslims and hindus live apart in india, as

far as it is possible.

 

far better then being bitter and frustrated all the time.

 

there will be opportunities for muslims to run their own ministates- own ministers, police, sharia courts, islamic banking. there will be

excellent prospects.

 

if i knew bandukwallah, asghar engineer, or teesta seetalwad, i would suggest this to them.

a start could be made in gujerat. all we need to do is to plant this idea in gujerat, and later on in rajasthan , kerala etc .

 

LALITMB

KALUNDBORG   DENMARK

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 02:21:30PM (IST)

'But they do not come up with your kind of hateful paranoid bilge.'

 

ANWAR PATEL

 

Abuse apart Sir your solutions to eradicate Islamic terrorism ?

 

And time frame ?

 

 

 

KHUSHI RAM

AMBALA CANTT   INDIA

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 02:19:00PM (IST)

faruki

 

read the article by irfan hussain in dawn.

july 30,2008.

 

dont keep on with your rude, innane comments.

 

if people in this forum express their hate for muslims, then normal people are likely to

feel the same way.

 

what ordinary ,normal muslims say about these bombings is beyond me.but presumably like you they believe that all their problems are due to unfair hindu govts, also in states ruled by commies and seculars.

 

LALITMB

KALUNDBORG   DENMARK

 

 

 

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 02:13:02PM (IST)

Muslims pretend to defend democracy when in minority. But wherever they are in majority, they ask for implementation of Sharia law and deny religious freedom to non-muslims.

 

Islam and Democracy are antithesis of each other. Islam is the biggest enemy of democracy.

 

J

BANGALORE   INDIA

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 02:12:59PM (IST)

'He was a nationalist to the core. And yet, I have never seen him referenced by the secularists. He was the most prominent among muslims who was a devout as well as a secularist in the classical sense(not the Nehruvian version of it).This is something that surprises me. '

 

GANESAN

 

MAULANA AZAD KALAM was a genuine Secularist hence was not liked by Nehru and his cronies .Due to the same reason Muslims too did not like him.

 

 

 

KHUSHI RAM

AMBALA CANTT   INDIA

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 01:55:55PM (IST)

ganesan bhai

 

south indians are respected in delhi.

 

people prfer to rent properties to them, because they are honest, reliable, and bright.

 

they occopy many top positions in govt and corporate sector. same goes for south indians in usa. examples are indira noyi, and a woman called warrier who is chief tech officer in a major us company.

 

its a pity that there is such an ass like karunanidhi in power in tamil nadu.

 

 

 

LALITMB

KALUNDBORG   DENMARK

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 01:48:52PM (IST)

ANWAR PATEL

DALLAS TX UNITED STAT

11:15:33AM (IST)

On religious lines I dont think the Islamic countries are fair in treating the non Muslims like the religious freedom the Muslims enjoy in a non Muslim country is not allowed for the non Muslims.Thats discrimination.

 

VINOD

BANGALORE   INDIA

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 01:43:20PM (IST)

 

Outlook Moderators,

 

Hope you are watching this space.

 

Anwar / Faruki , when asked questions on statements he makes here, gets personal & abusive. Please scroll back recent 4 pages to see the latest example.

 

My post addressed to Al bundy was a statement of fact. He could have answered, denied or kept quiiet. But this gentleman had to get abusive & personal to obfuscate the issue.

 

Hope you will ban him once again or warn him to behave here.

 

LOOKOUT BUG ME NOT

MUMBAI   INDIA

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 01:36:33PM (IST)

anwar / faruki >>Seems your psychotic symptoms are growing unchecked.

 

Predictable Jihadi CAIR tactics & drivel. Abuse others & get personal , when caught lying. Stick to the Subject Mian.

 

You proclaim to the world once agian, what a stupid idiot you are, when you get personal instead of answering the question.

 

Are you saying you did not make such a statement here?

 

Behave before you lose this id as well and are forced to change your browser once again.

 

LOOKOUT BUG ME NOT

MUMBAI   INDIA

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 01:18:58PM (IST)

ANWAR PATEL

DALLAS TX UNITED STATES

12:26:08PM (IST)

The Jihadis will be disappointed that not a single bomb went off in Surat.But if the bombs are placed in such a way and places to cause more damages and where the concentration of the people is more and that happens to be the place less frequented by the Muslims and then what?.And choosing Friday noon is not a significant in anyway?.The whole Muslim world is facing dangers from Islamic bombs on hourly basis.

 

VINOD

BANGALORE   INDIA

 

 

 

 

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 01:10:10PM (IST)

31/07/08

 

Anwar says:

'Same idiotic arguments from you! Do we have two systems of justice in India? Your hate has ruined your mind.

 

Same stupid but diabolical response. The comment implies that muslim countries will continue to treat others in a barbaric manner but others should treat the followers of Islam with equity and fairness.

 

In fact the word "barbarism" is derived from the name of three states in North Africa called Barbary states and USA, soon after independence, had to wage a series of wars against them to eradicate jihadist piracy.

 

 

 

RAVI

LOS ANGELES   UNITED STATES

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 01:07:14PM (IST)

A final note on Azad and muslims. Why is he touted as a standard bearer than say Zakir Hussain? Zakir Hussain was a class act. He was one of the best Presidents of India. Instead of speaking of uplifting muslims he actually did something positive to uplift muslims.

 

He was a nationalist to the core. And yet, I have never seen him referenced by the secularists. He was the most prominent among muslims who was a devout as well as a secularist in the classical sense(not the Nehruvian version of it).This is something that surprises me.

 

GANESAN

NJ   USA

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 12:58:51PM (IST)

alibaba:

"This bloody South Indians have airs of superiority about themselves, even though they are good at nothing."

 

You are wrong. We bloody south Indians are good in showing airs of superiority. We have it on the authority of Alibaba. We are good in something.

 

GANESAN

NJ   USA

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 12:26:08PM (IST)

Khushi Ram/Minu,

 

>> Persons who face daily Islamic Bombs.

 

Like everyone else, Hindus and Muslims alike. But they do not come up with your kind of hateful paranoid bilge.

 

 

ANWAR PATEL

DALLAS TX   UNITED STATES

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 12:11:47PM (IST)

'Your kind of arguments can be understood only if we assume that you are totally paranoid, or that your goal is to see schisms continue and grow for ever.'

 

ANWAR PATEL

 

Persons who face daily Islamic Bombs can be paranoid.Sir what should we do to save our limbs and lives from Jehadies.

 

Sir ,Give us any solution we will accept and India will be ever gratefull .What to do to stop these Muslim killers ? Any solutions ?

 

What will be the time frame ?

 

What are our crimes other than listed by me that we are being routinely bombed ?? After all there must be a reason that we are killed in name of Islam .What are those ?

 

KHUSHI RAM

AMBALA CANTT   INDIA

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 11:41:30AM (IST)

LBMN,

 

>> The lie was that he saw such a board "not very long ago ".

 

Seems your psychotic symptoms are growing unchecked. You should not delay your treatment any further. Your paranoid symptoms are treatable, but those difficulties resulting from your poor genes and your rotten upbringing may not be as amenable to treatment. However proper treatment of your paranoid psychosis will make your other problems less prominent. But get into proper treatment ASAP, please.

 

 

ANWAR PATEL

DALLAS TX   UNITED STATES

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 11:29:12AM (IST)

>>In any case, I wonder what kind of proof is expected?

 

The lie was that he saw such a board "not very long ago ". Dena Bank is a PSU for 40 years now and before that was a public limited company.

 

It is impossible for both such entities to display such a board in their personnel office , as claimed .

 

So how long ago was this "not very long ago" ? If he mentions the year, his lie is nailed.

 

LOOKOUT BUG ME NOT

MUMBAI   INDIA

 

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 11:15:33AM (IST)

Ravi/Thiagan,

 

>>>> "When certain groups of criminals remain above the law, it creates a sense of hopelessness amongst the not so equal in the society -- in this case, the Indian Muslims."

>> Does Islam treat other religionists with equity and fairness?

 

Same idiotic arguments from you! Do we have two systems of justice in India? Your hate has ruined your mind.

 

 

ANWAR PATEL

DALLAS TX   UNITED STATES

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 11:11:57AM (IST)

Khushi Ram/Minu,

 

>> This is now the routine game.One set of killers first kill and then second set of soothers take over to placate and apply balm.

 

Your kind of arguments can be understood only if we assume that you are totally paranoid, or that your goal is to see schisms continue and grow for ever.

 

 

ANWAR PATEL

DALLAS TX   UNITED STATES

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 11:07:21AM (IST)

>> That he saw a board in dena bank

 

Doubt a proof for this can be given. Of course, I don't believe it either, given that a public sector bank can't publicly practice such discrimination. It was probably just another lie where he thought he wouldn't be challenged.

 

In any case, I wonder what kind of proof is expected?

 

AL BUNDY

SAN FRANCISCO   UNITED STATES

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 11:03:04AM (IST)

31/07/08

 

"When certain groups of criminals remain above the law, it creates a sense of hopelessness amongst the not so equal in the society -- in this case, the Indian Muslims."

 

Does Islam treat other religionists with equity and fairness? All the temples in Pakistan and B'desh have been demolished and they are now destroying the temples in Malaysia, a supposedly moderate muslim country. In fact there is no space for minority in the Islamic belief system; you convert or you pay jazia and remain a dhimmi or get killed. Hence muslims have no moral right to demand equal treatment in non muslim countries.

 

RAVI

LOS ANGELES   UNITED STATES

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 11:01:59AM (IST)

read :WFourth set of anarchists press to get Pota and other Laws withdrawn

 

KHUSHI RAM

AMBALA CANTT   INDIA

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 10:57:00AM (IST)

'Those who kill innocents have nothing to do with Islam. Sura Al-Baqr (Verse: 114) in the Quran states that Allah dislikes those who indulge in arson, loot and killings. Sura Al-Kafirun (Chapter: 30) mentions: Lakum dinokum waley yadeen (You follow your religion; let them follow theirs).

 

Islam rejects violence in all its forms, but the jehadis take the terror path without bothering about the impact it can have on a common Muslim by making him the usual suspect.' Azad's Grnd son

 

1. What Quran says does not save our lives.What matters that we the Indians are killed mercilessly by the muslim TERRORISTS who get full co-operation from some of the traiter Indian Muslims (not all Muslim are Traiters).

 

2.Killers are sheltered in Muslim areas and they get full support from some local Muslims to kill us.Such a massive operations executed in Banglore,Ahemedabad,Surat -next stop ?,-next stop ? can't be perpetrated by a few Terrorists sent by ISI.Local Muslims in all the three cities have participated in very large numbers .

 

LET US KEEP THIS FACT IN MIND .

 

A few pious words don't assure us.This is now the routine game.One set of killers first kill and then second set of soothers take over to placate and apply balm.Simultaneously third set of anarchists continue creating confusion saying - could be Bajrangies,could be reaction of Gujrat riots,could be reaction of Babri etc. Could ,could be .When the killers are arrested then fourth set of anarchists take over shouting justice not done like Afzal,police is blindly arresting muslims ,muslims soft targets,forced confessions taken.do the investigations as is done in USA etc.We setof anarchists press to get Pota and other Laws withdrawn.Teestas jump in to fight for the Rights of the Muslim Terrorists only.

 

WE INNOCENTS AHVE NO RIGHTS ?

 

FINALLY Terrorists,killers come out of detention whistling 'MERA BHARAT MAHAN Ley LEY kissi ki jaan"

 

AND starts another round of blasts,more killings of childern,male ,females ---

 

And the another round of chest beatings by the Terrorist harbuorers and supporters.

 

 

THE NET RESULT IS THAT AN INDIAN'S LIFE is DIRT CHEAP .A TERRORIS'S LIFE IS only precious.

 

CAN'T KILL HIM.CAN'T DO ENCOUNTERS.THEY ARE INNOCENTS TILL PROVED GUILTY.EVEN IF THEY ARE CAUGHT WITH 20 TRUNKS OF BULLETS FOR AK-56 ,WITH DOZENS OF AK-56 BLAST MACHINE GUNS AND 100S OF KG OF RDX LIKE SARIFUDIN THEY ARE INNOCENTS like Sharifudins !

 

YES SIR WE THE INNOCENT AAM ADMIES SHOULD NOT BE KILLED AS THE BOOK SAYS.BUT WE ARE STILL being KILLED ! Why Sir ?

 

Sir Firoz Bakht Ahmed Grand Son of Maulana Azad can you explain Sir, us why - Why sir we are being killed by Muslim terrorists ?

 

Did we do the mistake under the Leadership of your Grand Father not to take the Partion to its logical ends-Pakistan for Muslims and India for Hindus ?

 

After all Pakistan was created on specific demands of Muslims that they could not live with Hindus !

 

SIR Firoz Bakht Ahmed I humbly and with due respects submit Sir that History within 60 yrs has proved that Jinnah was right and your Grand Father was wrong !! HISTORY NEVER TELLS THE LIES !!

 

 

KHUSHI RAM

AMBALA CANTT   INDIA

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 10:52:52AM (IST)

>>And to add to the list , the proof for following claims made by anwar / faruki here..

 

You forgot about the claim that Hindus and Buddhists destroyed as many temples and stupas as the Mislims

 

RSM

DELHI   INDIA

 

 

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 10:45:08AM (IST)

>>We are still awaiting proof over the last few months for your claims casting aspersions on Lala Lajpat Rai and Pandit Malaviya....

 

And to add to the list , the proof for following claims made by anwar / faruki here..

 

1. That he saw a board in dena bank , ahmedabad, not very long ago , which said we do not hire muslims. We want to know when. As Dena bank is a PSU bank and such a board just cant exist. This was a blatanyt lie.

 

2. That he saw a similar board in some shoe factory in Agra. Name of the factory and date please. Agras shoe business is controlled by Muslims and this mian says he saw a board to the contrary.

 

3, That the membership of CAIR has increased after 9/11, where as the counsel for CAiR in a legal affidavit says it has declined.

 

LOOKOUT BUG ME NOT

MUMBAI   INDIA

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 10:39:29AM (IST)

Ashok,

 

>> We don't let Allah, Islam, Q'ran or the local Maulvi decide who is Hindu or who is not.

Nor does one's ability to read Ramayan 5 to 50 times a day or bodily hair any criteron for deciding who is Hindu or not?

 

None of the above are absolutes, and they change with time and place for both Hindus and Muslims. Only small minds will make a big point about such differences.

 

 

ANWAR PATEL

DALLAS TX   UNITED STATES

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 10:02:12AM (IST)

Ganesan - the main reason for your set of leaders is that you have not looked deeper into them. Let me give you some examples. Bose for instance followed my enemy's enemy is my friend. I question his logic in that, getting to becoming a friend of Hitler is something I would not want in any leader in India. Rajaji was a person who lost direction after the independence and did nothing for Madras state and for Tamil Nadu state. He was lost in the dravidian/non-dravidian problems. If he had been visionary, he could have stopped it. However, he had no clue how to stop it and it led to the DMK madness and it still continues. I can go on and on. So, as many media put it, the only reason you are in awe with these leaders is that they have not been in limelight. If they are seen carefully, it can be painful. There is no democracy without dissent, every leader does his part.

 

PRAKASH

SAN FRANCISCO   UNITED STATES

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 09:47:13AM (IST)

 

Alibaba, the 41st Muslim Thief,

 

What a bunch of funny reasons for not accepting Kalam as a Muslim!!

 

"There are some reasons for it.

 

Alright! We can't wait to hear them from horses' mouth!

 

" Firstly, Abdul Kalam was a BJP's version of a Muslim

 

So, all those who are associated with BJP are NOT Muslims? Is that what you are saying? And yet, you expect BJP to treat you fairly?

 

", a dipsomniac who read Gita instead of Quran"

 

So, you admit that any Muslim who has an open mind to read any other books of any other religion is NOT a Muslim? You prove what we all have been saying about Islam, thank you!!!

 

". Secondly, he spoke in a highly incomprehensible Madrasi accent English

 

So, comprehensible Madrasi accented English is another qualification to be a Muslim? Right on!!!

 

", which probably no one understood, except himself."

 

So, even if one doesn't know English, which most Muslims don't, English comprehension is another requirement to be a Muslim?

 

"This bloody South Indians have airs of superiority about themselves"

 

So, ALL bloody South Indian Muslims are also disqualified?

 

", even though they are good at nothing. "

 

So, if Madani or the ilk, good at making bombs is better than these Southies who are good at nothing?

 

Samajh gaye, Maulanaji, your religion's simple terms for acceptance!

 

we all are unfortunately NOT upto these terms -- and , thank God for that!

 

ASHOK

BANGALORE   INDIA

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 09:29:46AM (IST)

ANWAR PATEL

DALLAS TX UNITED STATES

09:15:44AM (IST)

I dont think you are sincerely have any respects for a liberal and nationalist Muslim.Sanghis cannot be like your other Muslims.Your other Muslims are your 'B' team.

 

VINOD

BANGALORE   INDIA

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 09:24:11AM (IST)

Ganesan,

 

"The Muslims as such even never liked Abdul Kalam our ex-president"

 

There are some reasons for it. Firstly, Abdul Kalam was a BJP's version of a Muslim, a dipsomniac who read Gita instead of Quran. Secondly, he spoke in a highly incomprehensible Madrasi accent English, which probably no one understood, except himself. This bloody South Indians have airs of superiority about themselves, even though they are good at nothing.

 

ALIBABA

NEW YORK   UNITED STATES

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 09:23:18AM (IST)

Anwar,

 

"Not only Kalam, Muslims don't even belive that Sufis are Muslims because they preach bhai-chara ....

 

I like and respect Kalam and the Sufis, but unfortunately many Muslims feel the same way about them as sanghis feel about Gandhi or Nehru. Sad!"

 

What a large heart you have!!

 

While Muslims don't accept Kalam and Sufis as Muslims, we Hindus accept that Gandhi and Nehru were Hindus, though their loyalties and affinity were more towards Moslems!1

 

We don't let Allah, Islam, Q'ran or the local Maulvi decide who is Hindu or who is not.

 

Nor does one's ability to read Ramayan 5 to 50 times a day or bodily hair any criteron for deciding who is Hindu or not?

 

 

ASHOK

BANGALORE   INDIA

 

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 09:15:44AM (IST)

Ashok,

 

>> Not only Kalam, Muslims don't even belive that Sufis are Muslims because they preach bhai-chara ....

 

I like and respect Kalam and the Sufis, but unfortunately many Muslims feel the same way about them as sanghis feel about Gandhi or Nehru. Sad!

 

 

ANWAR PATEL

DALLAS TX   UNITED STATES

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 09:13:09AM (IST)

"I was pointing out the fact that you were judging the leaders now, the leaders would have been fine at that time as the people of that generation would accept them"

 

Such a sloppy argument can be used for or against anyone. It serves no purpose.

 

"I wanted to know who was your idea of a good leader of India."

 

I have respect for people like Patel, Bose, Tilak, kamaraj, Rajaji and others. I respect Gandhi for the work he did in the area of untouchability. But he was a total disaster when it came to politics. And I have no regard for Nehru. He was a communist inside out.

 

 

GANESAN

NJ   USA

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 09:07:34AM (IST)

Ganesan,

 

"The Muslims as such even never liked Abdul Kalam our ex-president"

 

Not only Kalam, Muslims don't even belive that Sufis are Muslims because they preach bhai-chara and they don't believe that Hindu and Muslim Gods are any different. Even Kabir is accepted just because he can be counted as one more Muslim but his sayings, no way!

 

Islam doesn't allow Muslims to accept anything other than what it says what Q'ran says.

 

ASHOK

BANGALORE   INDIA

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 08:34:22AM (IST)

Why mention guys riding around in chariots and controversial chief ministers? What do they have to do with the very real and present danger of terrorism? Surely, this writer is not drawing a link between these unrelated events or people? But this seems to be a common tendency of Moslems and their apologists. Mention all the potential 'underlying causes': Ayodhya, Bombay riots, Gujarat, non-availability of the Srikrishna commission report etc. Needless to say, this courtesy( of finding underlying causes under every pillow) is never extended to non-Moslems! The Bahais and Jews in Iran, Hindus in Pakistan, Bangladesh, Afghanistan and Kashmir,a nd now non-Moslems in Malaysia- evidently these people have absolutely nothing at all to complain or be aggrieved about.

 

VARUN SHEKHAR

TORONTO   CANADA

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 08:23:48AM (IST)

ANWAR PATEL

DALLAS TX UNITED STATES

02:26:24AM (IST)

When it comes to religion all the qualities of a complete man who wears a mask of liberalism and religious tolerance falls down like pack of cards on its own displaying the ugly fanatic instincts and this is no exception with Prof.Waquar Ahmed.We have already seen the moment a person is educated or becomes a highly placed professional it dosent mean he is a complete man.Then what is the difference between Kabeel and Prof.Waquar.

The genesis of all the trouble is historic.Jihadis existed even before the birth of the Sangha Parivar or the Hindu awareness.As long as there are people who want to be inspired by the tyrant invaders and who want to continue thier legacy this land will not see any peace.

One need not refer to Koran to nail the Muslims terrorists.They have lent themselves for the non Muslims to believe that what they are doing is to ultimately is to please thier god.Why would one kill an innocent to please his god.Is it not cowardice and anti human.All the Muslims on the street may not be aware of all the passages of the Koran.But motivating even a educated mind is not difficult as religion is like an opium.Once stung will be an addiction.

Two wrongs cannot make one right.The Muslims may have their own reason to react against the civilized world.What matters is the methods adopted.Why make the innocent people as a tool or a security shield in thier wars or Jihads.You say that west is responsible for the Muslims to react violently.when it comes to punishing a terrorist in India you have reservations on our investigations,justice system and the government.

Coming to prof.Waquar when terrorists target and kill innocents the reaction to such bad action will be many fold and it may include the victims who may be innocents too. Its easy for professors sitting thousands of miles away and advising.How many Muslims in the present India you think know how Good Azad was while they definitely are not happy with the present Abdul Kalam as liberal and nationalistic Muslims are not popular with average Muslims.

India is not a failed state while its enemies within and at its borders and elsewhere want to fail it.They will not succeed.Now even America has come with an official statement the dubious role of Pakistan's ISI and its evil designs.India anyway is on the hit list of the ISI as well as Al queda.Will Indian Muslim leaders hail this and condemn the ISI for creating trouble in india through its sleeper cells.Management of terrorism is definitely poor but its not without a reason.The Muslim vote bank has tied down the government from taking any actions against them. Poor Muslims are cannon fodders of the Muslims if not entirely in India but definitely in the Muslim world.Look at whats happening in turkey,Lebanon,Pakistan,Palestine,etc etc.No use dismissing the bomb attacks as the handiwork of a sick mind unless the community comes forward and disowns them.If they are so sick why the educated one have to sympathise with them and call those who hate such evil force as hate mongers.

Ultimately the educated Muslims want to blame the Indian police,the investigating agencies,the justice system as responsible for making the Muslim youth take to terrorism by coming a SIMI or an Indian Mujaheddin.

Will the professor agree or accept the fact that Godhra carnage was a targeted attack against the Hindus in the first place even if the Muslims had reasons best known to them.Then he ha the moral right to accuse those taking chariot processions and those leading the retaliations to Godhra.

 

VINOD

BANGALORE   INDIA

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 07:59:15AM (IST)

Ganesan - I was pointing out the fact that you were judging the leaders now, the leaders would have been fine at that time as the people of that generation would accept them. We are a people of a different generation and have different wants and thus, different requirements in a leader. Does that make sense? I wanted to know who was your idea of a good leader of India. Do you have one? What is the basis you use for this?

 

PRAKASH

SAN FRANCISCO   UNITED STATES

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 07:31:00AM (IST)

>> How petty it is to pick random snippets and use them to defame a life devoted to one's country? You should be ashamed of yourself, though I know you aren't.

 

Well Ganesan has backed his comments with proof. We are still awaiting proof over the last few months for your claims casting aspersions on Lala Lajpat Rai and Pandit Malaviya.

 

Are you ashamed of yourself, as we all know you should be?

 

AL BUNDY

SAN FRANCISCO   UNITED STATES

 

 

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 07:23:35AM (IST)

" it must come naturally to you to derogate people based on highly selected material."

 

This from the crowd who take one or two sentences from Golwarkar's book and trash him for ever.

 

GANESAN

NJ   USA

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 07:19:34AM (IST)

ANWAR PATEL

DALLAS TX UNITED STATES

03:26:18AM (IST)

your frequent murmurs on that dilapidated Babri structure which was not even a mosque and the gates of which were opened by India's greatest secular's who are supposed to bear the brunt rather than those who are fighting for it to be restored to the Hindus.It was not the destruction but only removing the aberrations.

Bloodshed followed even after the partition of the country and the blame directly gos on the head of those who have been conspiring to separate or divide India.Will the Godhra carnage in anyway worthy of a reaction to what followed after The Babri demolition.

 

VINOD

BANGALORE   INDIA

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 07:18:53AM (IST)

An essay by the grandson of Maulana Abul Kalam Azad on the Banglore and Ahmedabad blasts:

 

 

http://www.twocircles.n...ty_must_get_louder.html

 

 

 

ANWAR PATEL

DALLAS TX   UNITED STATES

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 07:18:20AM (IST)

Azad had great regards for the Sufi Ahmad Sirhindi. He lived during the time of Akbar and Jahangir. He was a prolific writer who wrote books and letters. On this guy and his letters Azad wrote "but for these letters Muslim nobles would not have stood by Islam and but for the efforts of Shaikh Ahmad, Akbar's heterodoxy would have superseded Islam in India"

 

So what did the great Shaikh Ahmad write? Here are a few samples.

 

"The honour of Islam lies in insulting kufr and kafirs. One who respects the kafirs dishonours the Muslims... The real purpose of levying jiziya on them is to humiliate them to such an extent that they may not be able to dress well and to live in gran- deur. They should constantly remain terrified and trembling. It is intended to hold them under contempt and to uphold the honour and might of Islam"

 

And

 

"Cow-sacrifice in India is the noblest of Islamic practices. The kafirs may probably agree to pay jiziya but they shall never concede to cow-sacrifice"

 

The great secularist Azad had high regards for a person like Sirhindi. That says everything about his secularism.

 

GANESAN

NJ   USA

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 07:14:33AM (IST)

Ganesan,

 

>> Pointing out the positions actually taken by these people is to defame them!

 

Being a pupil of Aroun Shourie, it must come naturally to you to derogate people based on highly selected material. You serve the sanghi purpose well because the sangh does desperately want to debunk Gandhi, Nehru and Azad, in order to carry out their nefarious plan of destroying secularism.

 

 

ANWAR PATEL

DALLAS TX   UNITED STATES

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 07:04:57AM (IST)

Vinod:

"The Muslims as such even never liked Abdul Kalam our ex-president"

 

That is because Abdul Kalam is not a muslim. I am not saying this. This was uttered by the famous Rafiq Zakaria when Kalam was nominated for President.

 

And interestingly in Zakaria's book, Fakruddin Ali Ahmad scored more points than Kalam. Fakruddin Ali was a disgrace as President. He was the ideal rubber stamp. But then who cares about such random snippets?

 

GANESAN

NJ   USA

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 06:59:24AM (IST)

"You should be ashamed of yoursel"

 

Like the ISI mark, Faruki issues these kinds of marks to people from time to time. "You must be ashamed", "you are a hate monger", "you are petty". That is his level of argument.

 

Pointing out the positions actually taken by these people is to defame them!!!

 

Prakash :

 

I have trouble following you. I cannot understand what you are finally trying to say.

 

 

GANESAN

NJ   USA

 

 

 

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 06:56:04AM (IST)

ANWAR PATEL

DALLAS TX UNITED STATES

04:43:11AM (IST)

Before telling Bagai to go to sleep if you could have answered his question as to what the Muslims got by burning the train at Godhra I am sure he would have had sound sleep.I would have told bagai that you worried about Godhra1 while we are now passing through Godhra2 of course at Ahmedabad and Surat.

 

VINOD

BANGALORE   INDIA

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 06:52:23AM (IST)

ANWAR PATEL

DALLAS TX UNITED STATES

06:13:18AM (IST)

your reply to Ganesan.

 

Leave aside the knowledge of Abdul Kalam Azad as a true representative of the Muslims as they dont regard any moderate leaders as theirs.The Muslims as such even never liked Abdul Kalam our ex-president who is respected and revered by the entire young non Muslims of India.Let the Muslims learn to respect thier own moderate leaders and those Muslims who made India proud.For most unfortunately the Saddams and the Ladens are the role models.

 

VINOD

BANGALORE   INDIA

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 06:27:35AM (IST)

Ganesan, to be fair, a lot of the people like Gandhi, Nehru and Azad would have looked fair at that time, but will not look good now. This is due to the passage of time and things that they considered important are not important any longer. Very few leaders can stand out with the passage of time. I am asking you to point out a single Indian leader who would do so. They all have their strong and weak points and it is up to us to dissect them and decide if we still consider them great. They may not be important in the present day world, however, they were able to unite the people at that time, which is important. Without that, there would not have been an India. If you do not care for that, that is fine too. However, you must ask yourself what is important to you and who is a great leader based on that. Will that leader stand the test of time? That is a vital question.

 

PRAKASH

SAN FRANCISCO   UNITED STATES

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 06:13:18AM (IST)

Ganesan,

 

>> If Azad is a moderate, what would a fundamentalist look like?

 

You seem to be on a rampage! You have demolished Gandhi and Nehru. Now it is Abul Kalam Azad's turn. How petty it is to pick random snippets and use them to defame a life devoted to one's country? You should be ashamed of yourself, though I know you aren't.

 

 

ANWAR PATEL

DALLAS TX   UNITED STATES

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 05:53:17AM (IST)

Here are some moderate positions of Maulana Azad.

 

To begin with, in the mid forties, he stipulated that half the members of parliament be muslims and the other half is to be comprised of hindus, christians etc. Some secularism that. Behind the back of Gandhi and others, he assured the British that such a proposal would be accepted by the Congress. And he was caught lying in the act and lost much of his sheen-till rehabilitated by Nehru.

 

Azad frequently called for hindu muslim unity. And he cited that Prophet also made a pact with the jews of Medina. He cited this in the supreme confidence that people do not know what happened to the jews who signed that pact. Within a few years, two of the three clans were chased away and the last clan was murdered to a last man. This is supposed to be the model for hindu-muslim unity.

 

He called Akbar's rule as the near suicide of Indian Islam simply because Akbar had tolerated hindus and had actually married hindu princess.

 

This is the guy, the author writes taught us the best lessons of secularism and non-violence. If Azad is a moderate, what would a fundamentalist look like?

 

GANESAN

NJ   USA

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 05:41:03AM (IST)

faruki

 

americans and britts have done awful things.

 

but so have you muslims. pakistan has been sending terrorists for decades.

 

i think we should have bombed them where it hurts

most. following your logic besides terrorist camps we could bomb civilians too.

 

muslims can not keep on finger pointing. you

have lots of skeletons in your cupboard.

 

india at any rate has been much too soft with you.

 

the jews suffered a lot from germans. unlike you

people they did not bomb civilians or innocent

people.

 

facts are that world opinion is very much against you. thats what counts.

 

LALITMB

KALUNDBORG   DENMARK

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 05:31:34AM (IST)

faruki

 

i refer to irfan hussains article in the newspaper Dawn of 30 july.

 

there is also an article by ardeshir cowasjee.

 

it is not us hindus, but people like you who are incapable of thinking rationally and reasonably. both articles have something about this.

 

i think muslims in india are on a loseing wicket. and it is entirely up to you how you get on.

 

you have a chance to improve your lives materially and socially forgetting your special religious interests and past injustices done to you.

 

the second alternative is to fight advani and modi, and become a damned nuisance.

 

remember we do not consider ourselves bound to do anything for you, or christians, sikhs whatever. if you fail to make it, it will your own problem.

 

the situation will become explosive if muslims try and punish us for wrongs real and imaginary.

 

dont push your luck.

 

do also have a look at pakistan. muslims fought for this islamic state. why dont some muslims settle down there. is pakistan even worse for you then india. is that the reason.

 

there are great similarities amongst muslims from pakistan and india. pakistani,s have failed.

muslims in india are doing all they can to sink the ship.

 

this is probably an exaggeration. but recent events and your attitudes will result in over reactions from us.

 

LALITMB

KALUNDBORG   DENMARK

 

 

aily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 04:43:11AM (IST)

Lalit bagai,

 

>> what have muslims gotten by burning the train in godhra.

 

Have you been following the posts, or just reading them haphazardly at random? Please go to bed!

 

 

ANWAR PATEL

DALLAS TX   UNITED STATES

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 04:41:30AM (IST)

Lalit Bagai,

 

>> we indians are also angry with pakistans and

chinas foreign policies. so i guess its ok to bomb karrachi and beijing.

 

Your questions are reflective of either denseness or an unwillingness to understand.

 

 

ANWAR PATEL

DALLAS TX   UNITED STATES

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 03:56:11AM (IST)

faruki

 

what have muslims gotten by burning the train in godhra. remember only one carriage with the pilgrims was burnt.

 

today muslims have used up any good will they

had, not just in india.

 

former people who were sympathatic to muslims are

changeing their minds. you must have read books by melanie philips, martin amis etc.

 

 

you have a mindset of members of hamas. it will land your type in grave problems.

 

 

LALITMB

KALUNDBORG   DENMARK

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 03:51:27AM (IST)

faruki

 

what was american foreign policy which put of muslims.

 

we indians are also angry with pakistans and

chinas foreign policies. so i guess its ok to bomb karrachi and beijing.

 

i will say one thing very clearly.

 

india is not a country which provides much to its people poor or rich. people have to strive hard to make it.

 

if muslims work hard they will get opportunities in india, or abroad. surely usa does not discriminate against muslims, and then there is the middle east.

 

no one can take out his frustrations on ordinary people. if this was so, then are lots of people

would take to bombing everywhere.

 

LALITMB

KALUNDBORG   DENMARK

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 03:28:17AM (IST)

Lalit Bagai,

 

>> do you dare tell americans that the bombings

of wtc was because of their offensive foreign

policy.

 

Many Americans say it themselves.

 

 

ANWAR PATEL

DALLAS TX   UNITED STATES

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 03:26:18AM (IST)

Lalit Bagai,

 

>> makeing so much fuss about the derilict babri masjid.

 

Was all the bloodshed that followed worth it for Advani and his karsevaks who had gone to destroy the mosque? Why bring rationality into this! You think you are raising wise questions, but these issues are from a different dimension. In any case it is time for you to go to bed.

 

 

ANWAR PATEL

DALLAS TX   UNITED STATES

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 03:19:55AM (IST)

"In fact, Mahatma Gandhi, a devout Hindu himself, taught us all the best lessons of secularism and non-violence, as did Maulana Azad, a devout Muslim."

 

This is typical secular drivel. One just has to go and see what Maulana Azad said in Deoband and to other muslims.Just because he chose to stay with India and oppose Pakistan does not mean he is a modernist. He was as much a fundamentalist as any other Maulana.

 

And nothing needs to be said about Gandhi's secularism. The results of his policies are there for everyone to see.

 

GANESAN

NJ   USA

 

aily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 03:12:47AM (IST)

faruki

 

do you dare tell americans that the bombings

of wtc was because of their offensive foreign

policy. the usa was not engaged with muslim countries, except for its support to israel.

 

do muslims have a veto on american foreign policy.

 

LALITMB

KALUNDBORG   DENMARK

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 03:09:26AM (IST)

faruki

 

how is the rule of law in pakistan.

 

the lal masjid was bombed. does this give the militants a clean chit to murder and kill.

 

muslims are bombing mosques. the sunnis bomb

shia mosques, and the shias bomb sunni mosques.

 

what are muslims gonna do about this.

 

i think that you guys are lunatics to risk your

entire future in india by makeing so much fuss

about the derilict babri masjid. the big thing about this was that kaffirs destroyed this masjid, and not some brother muslims.

 

i think i speak for all hindus,when i say that we will not be accountable for all the big

and small things which upset you. are you guys going to bomb innocent people in the usa, because some americans blow up one of your mosques.

 

i sure would like to see this happen. if you are stupid enough to take to revenge and terror, be

sure that you will be jailed and put away for all times.

 

muslims seem to want to fight at the slightest pretext. how about us hindus. i am really furious

muslims pursued tasleema nasreen, and have been

after sani mirza. iwas furious about godhra and your sly way of avoiding blame, courteous a corrupt judge paid of by laloo prasad. frankly i could in a fit of temper do another babri masjid on you guys.

 

in most ways you are a burden on poor india, and this does not bother you a bit.hindus are also fed up with so many muslims, and this was nothing

we expected after partition. most of us thought that the muslim saga was over, and pakistan would be your homeland and bharat ours. what a let down.

 

finally if you are so unhappy in india, how many of you have taken the train to pakistan.no one is holding you back. all citizens who find india insufferable, of which ever religion should immigrate. there is no excuse to take out their frustrations on poor and innocent people.

 

this message needs to be sent out to all in india. if you dont like conditions then leave, whether you are hindu, sikh or muslim. dont dare

to use your frustrations to attack innocent people who by bad luck happen to be around.

 

lastly. how many mosques should budhists and hindus destroy after your blowing up the bamiyan budhas. how many muslims are we entitled to kill.

 

how many muslims should the spaniards kill for the bombing of the trains in madrid.

 

 

LALITMB

KALUNDBORG   DENMARK

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 02:26:24AM (IST)

Prof.Waquar Ahmed's plea for upholding the rule of law, and his attributing terrorist acts at least partly to the anger and indignation at the Advanis and the Modis not being held accountable for their atrocious actions, deserve attention but will be dismissed as being an example of the much maligned "root-cause" theory. Sanghis have already found full explanation for terrorism in some passages of the Quran that most Muslims may not even recognise. If that does not work, they will bring up 9/11 or the London train bombs, never mentioning the offensive illegality of Anglo-American foreign policy misadventures! I firmly believe that terrorism is never justified, and terrorists should be apprehended and given the severest punishment. But such concern for the rule of law should be all-compassing.

 

 

ANWAR PATEL

DALLAS TX   UNITED STATES

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 01:56:28AM (IST)

What an overwhelmingly stupid and dishonest article.

 

SRIRAM

CHENNAI   INDIA

Daily Letters | 31 Jul, 2008 01:35:08AM (IST)

complete bilge.

 

the destruction of a derelict mosque should never have given muslims a reason to feel so aggrieved, that they attack innocent fellow citizens.

 

if this is so then we hindus have a lot to complain about. and so do many others nonmuslims.

 

the failure of muslims is entirely due to their inability to reason, introspect and give and take.

 

this professor chap has no idea of the ongoing war of civilisations , and forgets that muslims are seen as dangerous lunatics all over europe.

 

and this after europe has treated them so generously.

 

lastly why do muslims complain only when attacked by nonmuslims. has this professor any comments on the unending slaughter by muslims

against other muslims.

 

LALITMB

KALUNDBORG   DENMARK

 

 

These are the unedited and unexpurgated views of the readers and Outlook does not necessarily endorse them. Readers are requested to keep their feedback limited to the subject matter of the article being responded to. Please also note that while we encourage healthy criticism, ad hominem attacks or abusive language are not encouraged and would not be tolerated. Please note that privileges of registration and posting will be withdrawn from persistent abusers and spammers. Please remember that hate-speech is a crime punishable by law.

 

Source: Outlookindia.com

 

URL: http://www.newageislam.com/islam,terrorism-and-jihad/write-back--defending-democracy/d/353





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