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Muslims and Islamophobia (18 Mar 2010 NewAgeIslam.Com)



Growing Islamophobia: Missing Introspection: Do We Muslims Too Owe Some Responsibility? And What Can We Do About It? Sultan Shahin Asks Muslim Delegates to UNHRC

 

 

  

Editor, Newageislam.Com, Sultan Shahin's Oral Statement to the Current Thirteenth Session of UN Human Rights Council in Geneva on 16 March, 2010:

 UN Human Rights Council

Thirteenth Session

 Agenda Item 5: General Debate: Human Rights Bodies and Mechanism

Oral Statement by:  Sultan Shahin

On behalf of: International Club for Peace Research

Mr. President,

I would like to confine myself to reflecting on the problems of religious minorities, particularly Muslim minorities who are facing xenophobia and related forms of intolerance today in an atmosphere of widespread Islamophobia. We Muslims are also complaining of an attempt to encourage Islamophobia. The French ban on veils and Swiss ban on minarets has further vitiated the atmosphere. We do not know for sure how much of this is deliberate as a sort of anti-Islam crusade as we Muslims allege and how much is a paranoid reaction to growing radicalism, extremism and exclusivism in Islamic societies.

But I find a note of introspection on the part of us Muslims and Muslim governments completely missing in the continuing debate. I intend to do precisely that today. While we Muslims demand, and rightly so, the freedom to freely practice and propagate our religion in the non-Muslim majority countries, we do not seem to worry about the plight of religious minorities living in Muslim-majority lands.

That Muslim societies in general have radicalised over the last decades cannot be denied. This has been a direct result of tens of billions of petrodollars having been spent in promoting a rigid, obscurantist, desiccated version of Islam, shorn of all its beauty and bounty. Preachers of what I can only call “petrodollar Islam” have gone around the world asking Muslims to develop a separate identity that distinguishes them not only in the practice of Islamic prayer rituals but also looks and apparel. The phenomenal rise in Muslim women wearing Hijab and an assortment of veils or men growing what is called an Islamic beard is no accident.

Discrimination against religious minorities in Muslim-majority countries has grown. Anti-blasphemy laws, for instance, have been routinely used to harass and commit acts of violence against religious minorities. The Report of the Special Rapporteur on freedom of religion or belief, Asma Jahangir, mentioned the case of Christians and the minority Muslim sect of Ahmadis who are continually harassed on baseless allegations of blasphemy in Pakistan despite the government’s stated commitment to fulfil its international obligations.  One almost routinely comes across in the media these days headlines like the following emanating from Muslim-majority countries:

Saudi Man Kills Daughter For Converting To Christianity

Two Sikhs Beheaded In Pakistan For Refusing To Convert To Islam

'Scared Pakistani Hindus Fleeing To India'

Malaysia Strips Hindus Of Rights

Indonesia: Religious TV Jeopardizing Pluralism

And so on.

Mr. President,

Another issue that may be fuelling Islamophobia is the widespread Islam-supremacism in the Muslim community. God told us in the Quran that Islam is not a new religion; it is the same religion that God has been sending to this planet through tens of thousands of previous prophets. We were told that the Holy Quran is merely a reiteration of the messages that were sent before. We were specifically told not to fall in the trap of considering ourselves the chosen people. But we did not listen. We have developed an ideology of Islam-supremacism, contrary to all Islamic teachings. We have developed a theory that Muslims alone will go to Heaven, all others are going to be consigned to Hell, no matter how righteous. Obviously anyone who harbours a feeling of superiority over others cannot possibly expect to have good relations with them.

Then we have allowed a section of Muslims to spread among us a version of exclusivist Islam that wants us to get away from each and every pre-Islamic tradition. Pre-Islamic traditions like Hajj and veneration of Kaaba Sharif are intrinsic to Islam itself. But we are told that we should behave and look different from followers of all other religions and forego all our local cultural traditions.

A derivative of this same petrodollar Islam is what is known as Jihadi Islam. This Jihadi Islam is taking away our youth, brainwashing them and turning them into human bombs. It is using some verses of the Holy Quran as weapons of war. We all know that the Prophet had to fight existential battles to safeguard Islam. These verses were revealed then to buttress the war effort. But they are not meant for us to act upon today.

While the Jihadi Islam is using these verses to brainwash our youth to following these dictates to the letter even today, the petrodollar Islam helps the process by saying repeatedly that every word in the Quran is of equally universal significance implying that the call to war contained there has the same value as the call to prayer, for instance, or the call to righteousness. Apparently the petrodollar Islam and the Jihadi Islam are two sides of the same coin.

We mainstream Muslims are silent spectators; we are allowing both of them to devastate our societies, create permanent fissures in our relations with other communities. We are allowing them to suck the spiritual content out of our religion and fill it with a desiccated, dry, desert version of Islam in which there is no room for anything that is cheerful or beautiful.  One of the attributes of God is beauty, but there is only ugliness and strife in the hearts of petrodollar Islamists.

Mr. President,

Mainstream Islam is still mainstream. These sections are still small, though with the infusion of massive money power they have grown quite aggressive lately. It is time, we the Muslim people and our governments stopped merely demanding rights from the international community but also thought of what we can ourselves contribute to fulfilling the UN ideals of establishing peace and safeguarding the human rights of all peoples around the world.  It is time we decided to take the Jihadi bull by its horns. Time for dilly-dallying is long past. We will have to go back to our roots, our Quranic roots, our philosophical roots, our greatest saints and their teachings. We will have to once again inculcate the broadmindedness of our saints, the generosity and forgiveness, the attitude of gratitude that was the hallmark of our prophet. It has now become a question of safeguarding not only our religion but our children, our youth from being whisked away to Jihadi camps and active and sleeper cells. The very least we can do to safeguard our own youth as much as the human rights of entire humanity as well as world peace is to explain to our people loudly and repeatedly:

That we are not a chosen people; Islam-supremacism is nonsense and that the Ummah of all prophets are equal in the eyes of God who will judge them according to their own faith, not ours. That the war verses in the Holy Quran were meant for wars being fought then and do not apply to situations today. That Islam is not the exclusivist religion that the Petrodollar Islam is preaching. It is a religion of co-existence encapsulated in the verse Lakum Deenakum Waleya Deen (For you be your religion and for me mine) and La Ikraha fid Deen (There can be no compulsion in religion). That it is dangerous to press for the establishment of Sharia   laws in non-Muslim lands. India is the only non-Muslim majority country in the world that allows Muslims to organise their family life according to their own personal laws. But other societies are not prepared for it. Muslim countries themselves do not allow religious minorities such freedom. So making a case for that in Europe and other countries creates further Islamophobia in the present atmosphere in which some fear of Islam and Muslims should not be difficult to understand, though of course, all governments should try to fight it and protect legitimate rights of the Muslim community. That religious freedom is indivisible. If we as a minority community need freedom, it becomes our duty to also fight for the religious freedom of minorities in Muslim lands. That Islam itself teaches us Ijtihad, rethinking, so that we can adjust to the newer realities of changing times.

 URL: http://www.newageislam.com/muslims-and-islamophobia/growing-islamophobia--missing-introspection--do-we-muslims-too-owe-some-responsibility?-and-what-can-we-do-about-it?-sultan-shahin-asks-muslim-delegates-to-unhrc/d/2590

 




TOTAL COMMENTS:-   119


  • "The Missing Introspection" - Sultan Shahin

    Excellent article.

     

    This is not a neo-convert (having discarded Islam) or a Muslim-Apostate or a Non-Muslim denigrating Muslims and Islam.

     

    It seems to be genuine and highly commendable introspection voiced publicly by a Muslim who has no hesitation in declaring himself (herself?) a Muslim.

     

    So very admirably refreshing when compared to those idiots (both Muslim and Non-Muslim) who are apologists for the terrorist activities carried out with justifications given from Islam itself or very many other vague and fanciful excuses furnished for such activities. 

     

    Sultan Shahin does not whine, as has become a habit for very many, "the world is against me because I am a Muslim, the world is against Islam" instead he (she) tries to give some insight into the possible reasons

    for Muslims (as a generalisation) and Muslim-countries being increasingly questioned for their double-standards and being viewed with a lot of suspicion.


    By Kshmendra - 12/28/2014 4:18:42 AM



  • All said and done, the views of author are very clear and factual. I admire for his true assessment of the situation.
    By Dr. Anees Ahmad - 3/20/2011 12:03:53 PM



  • Dear Mr. Surendra

    greetings.

     From my side also please treat the correspondence as closed.  

    As you will see, I am writing this, not by way of a reply, as much by way of an acknowledgment.

    Just one point. Sufi–ism is an inherent part of Islam which acts as a safety valve.  As long as men have religion in their lives, Sufi challenges to mechanically organized religion will remain there.

    I see, you are against any organized religion (because of your own experiences and analyses, may be). I slightly differ in that organization is not bad per se and is not beyond human capability to be maneuvered for good or for bad. I stand for maneuvering religion for the good of mankind.

    I would suggest you, not to give up on organized Hinduism. You will betray your cause if you do. Please make people on your side of the fence to see reasons, when you find them unreasonable, and argue with them from inside your religion.

    I cannot express enough my gratitude for your boldly accepting my right by saying , “Indian Muslims have as much right to live in India as any other Indian” .  From one posting of mine from this website I quote, “Muslims lack a national perspective in a genuine sense”  . This sentence of mine went completely unnoticed. But the anguish underlying this expression of mine needed some attention! Why do I lack any national perspective? And I say it, with extreme pain in my heart, because far from a feeling of disloyalty, I find myself deeply deprived in some essential ways.  I do not find sufficient anchor for my nationalistic yearnings. This is a gaping hole in my personality. But you can do pretty little in a short time to heal my wound.  So when you wrote all those things I knew you were doing only, what I have been repeatedly done before.  But I persisted with you to see reasons.  And so I say that I am truly grateful to you for saying: “Indian Muslims have as much right to live in India as any other Indian”.  This gives me a hope for future, because this one sentence coming from a man of your conviction (a dubious friend saying something and meaning something has no use for me) means a lot to me.

    I see that you are basically a votary for co-existence, which is also my goal. But there can be no co-existence without understanding.  In this mail of yours you have shown enough of understanding to lead me to reciprocate that even though there was a need to clarify the issue of the black stone in Kaaba, I personally find it not necessary at all to project my disagreement with you on this point. If you think it that way, well let that be.  

    I am with you for the rest of your ideas too. Bye, bye and best of life.

    Manzoorul Haque


    By Manzurul Haque -



  • Dear Mr. Manzurul,

    This will be my last post in this regard - just want to move forward. I am just writing some clarifications and not raising new issues. You are free to reply if you wish to, I am not going to reply. May participate in some other topics in future, but for a long time - may be a year - I will be a silent watcher.

    It is good if someone still supports the sufism aspect of Islam (otherwise it is fast vanishing tradition), and support the idea of co-existence not only in India but across the different countries.

    But I am going to write to Saudi government for the micro-issue you have raised.

    I used the micro issues to highlight the major issues, i.e. do not accept the un-necessary controls in life from the society/religions. By the way, I doubt is the Saudis will even reply to your query.

    I think the right solution in 1947 would have been to vacate Sindh,  Baluchistan, NWFP, Kashmir, and the whole of Punjab and East Bengal,  not to speak of the whole of India,  by the Muslims. An ethnic cleansing la-grande

    No, that is wrong interpretation. Was not 1947 partion was choice for Muslims to live in a plural society or in a Islamic country? Indian Muslims have as much right to live in India as any other Indian, but than we all should accept co-existent and plural society - there is no other option, I know there is no black and white, but I do not see any other option for peaceful co-existence. We should move beyond 1947. Even Pakistan and India should co-exist peacefully and both should concentrate improving the lives of their people rather than using their resources in fighting/terrorism etc.

    It is not logical to expect all people who live in India are expected to accept a plural society and move forward?

    Afghan government says that they were requested by us to help us and they did exactly according to the wishes of our negotiators. Shall we ever question ourselves? Did we act responsibly in the handling of the hijackers and to top it all, we had your nationalist BJP at the centre?

    Once the hijacking was done, there was no other way but get the people secured thru negotiation  - I do not support BJP. Anyway, Taliban's habit of supporting terrorism got them in trouble finally, as not everyone is as hopeless/helpless as Indian govt is, someone had to do clean-up.

    By the way - I am a non-political person. I support a government which is clean, corruption less, not invoking religion or short cut of reservation to gain power, maintain good law & order. If I will get time from personal responsibilities, I will work to unite educated/sane people in the country for this purpose. That is why I do not believe in any sectarian religion (which divides people) - I believe in ancient tradition of Dharma - which is moral responsibility at personal level (and not same as religion).  I do my duty, you do yours and we co-exist. The same time, I do not support Maoists, they kill innocent people. Maoists have failed even in China, the Chinese have turned to capitalism and no longer follows communism, the communism is a failled model both in China and Russia.

    About Kabaa;

    But Kaaba have a black stone - it is not a form of idol?  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Stone Why then Muslims are required to face Kaaba when praying, if it is not form of Idol worshipping? as you are facing a structure when praying. After all Idols are for concentraion and Kaaba/black stone are for concentration for Muslims. Hindus also face idols and worship, there are some rituals in Hinduism, but then Muslims also have rituals. Facing Kaaba and doing Namaaz five times a day is also ritual!

    My brother, Islam is not as harsh as you think. May be you have had a bad experience in Saudi for which Muslims owe you an apology. I would like to draw your attention to the intervening note of Mr. Sultan Shaheen. I am not unaware of the Beatitude of soul

    No need to aplogize. I had cited SA experience as simple examples I experienced but they are tiny insight into the real problems. I have omitted much more complex ones.

    I am not living in past, I want to look forward;

    Once a pakistani taxiwala once told me in Riyadh, after coming out of India and Pakistan, we all (Indian and Pakistani) realize that 90% people on both the sides of the border are good people but fight each other due to the politicians. I have visited Kashmir also and have Kashmiri friends, I say 90% of people are good, only 10% people create all the problems. 

    I have met several Pakistanis outside of India, and there is no problem among us, it is only the 10% making the life miserable for the 90%. The same applies to the religious problems, corruption, extremism etc. The problem is 90% of the poplulation is not able to control 10% of bad elements, and all sorts of problems are there. If 90% population unites for the goals of corruption free, lawful society based on equality, justice, and liberty, there are enough resources for everyone to live peacefully in the country. As Gandhiji said " Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed."

    All the educated and sane people are busy with religious, caste and other issues, if we come out of these types of madness, we can think of something useful and control the corrupt, un-lawful people. In the absence of such unity, these elements are rulling us.

    Europe could unite even after the world-wars, why India-Pakistan can not have some kind of understanding to co-exist peacefully?

    The problem - we are unwilling to unite due to religious, caste, and several other factors. The result - we are ruled by corrupt people and there is lawless society.

    I oppose all organized religions as they have created more divisions among human beings and support religions for spiritual development only. I respect all moderate people who believe in co-existence. Let us reach out to others and respect each other and learn to build a civilized society.

    For the non-moderates (Muslims or Hindus) harming others makes the life miserable for one self and others, every action have reaction, so think before taking action. Hate will generate hate and love will generate love. The choice is ours, those who do not learn lessons from history are condemned to repeat history and how many times we are condemned to repeat the history?  The ideologies are not important, leaving peacefully is important, the ideologies are conflicting and will never unite the human beings (Even there is conflict within the same ideology), only one thing can unit human being, that is humanity.

    May all be happy and live peacefully on the Earth.

    Surendra


    By Suren -



  • My dear Surendra sb,

    I would like to give a finishing touch with these comments of mine in the italics:

    Even today’s congress do not believe in Gandhji’s ideas any more, but see the point only in India due to free thinking, people like Gandhiji can happen. Gandhiji could not have happened in a western country (due to over bearing of capitalists) or in Russia (Communist are just as totalitarian ) or in a Islamic country (you can not deviate from Islamic ideas formed 1500 years back).  [Have we come to another End of History?]

     Any society which is not based on liberty, equality, and justice should not be acceptable to us. (Agreed. But I would still advise you not to join the ranks of Indian Naxalites. They are going to be reduced to pulp by our Home Minister Mr. P. Chidambaram by mashing them like hot potatoes)

    It is not true that Muslims do not worship idol, they do worship Kaaba, which is an Idol. The Muslims might hate the other form of Idol worship. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaaba.

    I am a Muslim but I did not know that I worshipped Kaaba until you told me. And why should I go to Wikipedia once you have told me that I am an idol-worshipper. You never know I might be worshipping Shiva, Vishnu and Mahesh (without my knowing of course) and you might never know that I might be a deep-rooted Hindu, again without my knowing of course (But this leads me to wonder why I am still targeted by Hindu fanatics). There is only one form of idol worship – the idol worship. There are different forms of idols – innumerable in fact. 

    In a way Islam propagates totalitarian society and there is no liberty, equality, and justice. (Illogical and unconnected derivation claiming legitimacy only from hysteria)

    About eating banana. No, it looks incorrect even to male- believers like me (Please don’t get angry with Islam). If you say that you did not have breakfast at home, and you are rushing to office without breakfast, then on the way, or in your office, they do not provide you, a declared non-Muslim, the privacy of a place to sit and eat your breakfast, then I promise, I am going to struggle to get this right, for non-Muslims. And be sure I am going to write to authorities in Saudi and if necessary request Government of India to take up this issue with Saudi Government.

    What about public transport? can someone be not in transit on the Ramadan day? In this case I was in a govt. building in Riyadh and they did not had any declared place for eating for non-believers like me. My point is different, why a society wants to even control eating of the people? Please support liberty, less number of chains in the form of this rule and that rule) better off we are!

    Obviously, when a government is made to examine a legal issue which has remained unnoticed or unattended, the issue is examined in its totality, to attend to all aspects of it. But you know, as much as I know, that the issue is not resolving that micro-issue, but the issue is to deal with the macro-issue of ‘controlling the eating of the people’? Look , there can be thousand–page debate on this. But let me tell you that at least in Muslim society there will be some restrictions on food or eating. Soon enough you will question the concept of Haram and Halal too, and why not, your free thinking allows this. My only fear is that you might be able to convince some of the woolly headed Muslims on the subject (though in Islam there are rational basis for such controls), but I know, you cannot convince most of the Hindus on these food restrictions, most of which are irrational (and I know many Hindu free-thinkers who stop short of questioning any Hindu practice happening on the ground, In fact the bogusness of theoretical claims is astounding).  

    Note: But I am going to write to Saudi government for the micro-issue you have raised.

    I also see that righteousness is also not the issue with you. Letting live is important. But how far can we avoid is the question? In fact this question will be facing you more and more.

    Righteousness is very subjective, everyone looks at the world from the filter of one’s own values, the problem is we are all brain-washed into a doctrine from child-hood and it is very difficult to remove this filter, so let us not judge others from the set of values we have (which may not be perfect)

    I know it is difficult to work out some of the difficult postulates of mathematics. But at the base level, it is axiomatic to believe 2+2=4 as self-evident. But I know of a kind of Hindu philosophy where 2=2 may not equal 4, even theoretically (Please correct me if I am wrong). The difficulty arises from here, that is, when self-evident facts are not perceivable by some, because of brain-washing from child-hood. That is why we say, grow up. Growing up is essential to be able to follow the progress of Truth and reach Righteousness.

    And please do not for a moment think that even I , (whatever kind of Muslim you treat me) think of non-Muslims as non-humans. I have to request this because I have such sweet friends amongst   Hindus that it pains me to see such generalized remarks of yours.

    My remarks are not directed towards you but towards the people who use Islam to deny equality, justice, and liberty to non-believers, justify terrorists acts against innocents when they can not fight openly.(About the terrorists thing I am in agreement with you. But in most of the cases of genuine attacks by Islamic terrorists, I find they fight more openly than any previous episodes in history. Take for example two terrorists entering Akshardham temple without the intention of returning. Ditto for CRPF camp in Rampur. Even in Mumbai these buggers acted dare-devilishly. There are numerous such instances outside of India too. In fact watching their modus operandi it has become easier to know, when a hundred lives are claimed by a bomb planted in a crowded place either in India or anywhere in the world, that the act is not a handiwork of Fidayeens).  

    For example, you take success or victory as some kind of sign of righteousness. In the scheme of Islam it is not so. Failure does not disprove righteousness; please remember this, and now you apply this to Saudi Arabia or Pakistan or wherever. Incidentally, don’t you think that the failure of Pakistan or Saudi to reach the ideals of Islam gives the Muslims/ Islamists, a cause to fight for those ideals, and the more blatant the failure, the greater the need to fight? You know, what you and I can do? We can ask these fellows to go slow. This may work.

    If a system can not deliver, batter to adjust the system. For you Islam is everything, for me, humanity, co-existence, liberty, justice, and equality are more important. [No,  for you Hinduism is everything (and please don’t tell me that there was no word like Hindu. We have already defined it for you, which finds mention in Indian constitution, and by virtue of which Muslims and Christians are debarred from the benefit of reservations. So be please up-to-date), else you would not have any objections in accepting Islam]. 

    If Islam can not deliver the results, limit it to personal spiritual development only. Muslims have many countries to experiment the Islamic ideas and they are all failures in terms of equality, justice, and liberty. (Because I still believe that Islam has the potential to deliver and that is why so many lives are being sacrificed. On the other hand from all your replies it is clear that you do not believe that Hinduism can at all deliver, yet you are fanatically attached to Hinduism. That is why I once requested you to think freely). 

    Why not for India we all respect our tradition of plural society and support the betterment of country and accept co-existence? (I have given you the philosophical basis of why you cannot accept co-existence and why Muslims find it rather easy to accept coexistence; and also cited you the historical example too. Please revisit my writings on these matters, in this very chain)

    Muslims/Islamist, please experiment Islamist ideas in a Muslim country not in India, the reasons are evident -  the failure of the Muslim countries in terms of liberty, equality, and justice. It is not matter of going slow, I urge to stop, change the direction and accept pluralism (which includes the idol-worshipers). (There is no question of Muslims experimenting with the destiny of this country. But if you did well in justice, equality and liberty – add to that prosperity, then Muslims and all other minorities will surely benefit, but which you are utterly failing to do, because of total direction-less-ness. Muslims are merely looking for peaceful coexistence and a legitimate share in prosperity. I have given you the philosophical basis of why you cannot accept co-existence and why Muslims find it rather easy to accept coexistence; and also cited you the historical example too. Please revisit my writings on these matters, in this very chain)

    I am not going to explain the idol-worshipping here (which your fore-fathers also did, imagine someone killed them for idol (other than Kaaba) worshipping, you would not have born), you can take help of your Hindu friends to understand, if no one explains - I can. (I wish how I could explain you, my brother that this is not the case at all. A true Muslim cannot kill a man for idol worshipping. He has to wait and pray that his brother gives up idol-worshipping after the message has been passed on. And another point.  I am not at all ashamed of my forefathers being Hindus but I am rather proud of my inheritance. But conversion to Islam, I just do not see as regressive. There is no prestige issue in this sublime pursuit. About understanding idol-worship, if I tell you what my Hindu friends tell me, you would either get angry with them or would call me a liar. But some of our friends on these pages of this website have already explained to me this matter. Please go though their views and add to their sterling presentations, if you have anything new to add).

    About Hindu Temple in Saudi or the general question of settlement in most of Arab countries, I think they consider the expats (Muslims and Non-Muslims alike) as the ones who have to necessarily go back and so they may not allow any semblance of permanent settlement there. But surely you can have your temple inside the confines of your house and pray as much as you want. I do hope there are no domiciliary visits on this count.

    So, Muslims can have mosques in a society where Muslims in minority, but non-Muslims can not have their temples? Is it not a form of discrimination?  And violation of principle of equality based on whatever reason? (I am afraid you are into social commentary without brushing-up your knowledge of social sciences, and you generalize too much. Look the greatest temple of history is already there in Saudi Arabia, and it is called Kaaba (which you have referred a number of times without understanding its true nature). You say Muslims worship Kaaba, but even I don’t say that Hindus worship temples. It would be funny to say so, isn’t it? Hindus worship the idols in the temple. In Kaaba,  there were nearly 360 idols which were removed as the Arabs took the historic step of moving towards Islam. Islam spread intensively within the Arab society and extensively in other regions of the world. All human beings inhabiting the Arabian peninsula became Muslims and therefore all places of worship automatically became places of worship of Allah. None of the temples in Arabia was vandalized and in historical evidence of which Kaaba stands today as the symbol of unity of Muslims. But inside Kaaba there are no idols. Now in other areas where Islam spread and idol-worshippers also remained, there has been perfect co-existence in history, the greatest example of which is India under Muslim Rule when there was no instance of any communal riot. There have been battles between kings  but battles were order of the day. So you find Hindu temples in Pakistan and Afghanistan. Now your claim is that as expats you should be allowed to have temple in Saudi Arabia. As far as I know, there are 80% expats in UAE, and according the principle of humanity there should be a rule by the majority of humans. So there should be a government of expats in UAE on the lines of Fiji! On the other hand, I consider it a greatness of the Arabs that they have allowed so many expats on their soil. You also seem to be laboring under an impression that Muslims in India have no right to legacy. But these questions were decided , Mr. Surendra,  in the past in the fiery battle-fields of history and not in the chaupals of the Indian villages churning mythology.)

    The massacres perpetrated by Muslims in India are unparalleled in history, bigger than the holocaust of the Jews by the Nazis; or the massacre of the Armenians by the Turks; more extensive even than the slaughter of the South American native populations by the invading Spanish and Portuguese

    http://www.answering-islam.org/NonMuslims/rights.htm

    [Instead of websites run by idiots, you should read authentic Indian history written by established Hindu historians to know your facts. You have not even read of the revolting cruelties shown by Hindu kings (especially in the southern part of the peninsula) in this sub-continent, prior to the advent of Muslim kings in India.]


    Among the first to make the demand for a separate state was the writer/philosopher Allama Iqbal, who, in his presidential address to the 1930 convention of the Muslim League said that a separate nation for Muslims was essential in an otherwise Hindu-dominated subcontinent

    http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Persecution_of_non-Muslims

    (Why should you be making me read something which is so very well-known, unless you think that the demand for Pakistan by Muslims was legally wrong? From what you have written further below, I think the right solution in 1947 would have been to vacate Sindh,  Baluchistan, NWFP, Kashmir, and the whole of Punjab and East Bengal,  not to speak of the whole of India,  by the Muslims. An ethnic cleansing la-grande!! Even then, at that point of history, there was sufficient land in the Muslim world to accommodate them all.)

    Now about Muslim extremism and containment. It certainly is an issue with Muslims too. I have given a hint where and how we can let it go slow. However, the final show-down between the moderate Muslims and the congenital extremist types will not be now, but in future, at the point when all the political territories of Muslims are vacated (or amicably settled) by the political usurpers of those territories. These defensive wars, call it by whatever name, are going to be fought with or without fatwas (so no point in spending money for fatwas) . If you are sincere in addressing these issues, the political solution can come. Else there is fight. Even fight can be moderated by allowing a level-playing field. And finally, after the political justice has been attained, and some extremists still continue to fight, out of their inherent extremism, in the cause of hatred or for mischief, then they will surely be crushed by the Muslims.

    Why can not be these people who belive in Islamic systems migrate to Islamic countries and the Islamic countries should accept them like Israel is accepting all jews. There is no shortage of land/resources with Muslim countries, and let the rest of the world live in peace.

    (I think to please a Hindu fanatic, we must do that.)

     

    Take for example, Kashmir, if any of the Kashmir muslims do not want the secular society and believe in Islamic country, they should move to Pakistan or any other country.

    [Even if it amounts to migrating of 99% of Kashmiris,  Mr. Surendra (because 99% of them believe in Islam) ? I am afraid they would not do it voluntarily. Yes, our Armed Forces can help them do it]

     Plane hijacking which is fraught with full risk to the hijackers, is never done for gains, but is a military venture for a political cause.


    Not sure if you justify the hijacking or not but if anyone justifies the hijacking of planes ; ( You are not sure, because the statement did not relate to my ‘surity’. Why are you afraid to give me a right to make a factual statement?  But if you want to have my opinion about the rightness of this conduct, please ask me straight and I will give you my opinion frankly. Well I and no sane Muslim will ever justify it. )

    Still it can not be justified under international obligations and rules, that's why I am saying, Islamic perspective is dangerous when dealing with loot, plunder, attacks and do not respect non-believers rights! (If non-believer’s right is to loot plunder and attack, then certainly Islamic perspective is dangerous. Islam is the greatest bulwark against white western imperialism which fact is well-known to the imperialists, even if you do not know it or choose to ignore to know it)

    Talibans and hijackers got $ 300 million, is it not done for material gain? kidnapping of the innocent people in plane is justified? Even the Pakistani and Taliban govt. agencies involved in hijacking.

    (Now look, we are in the habit of blaming others. Afghan government says that they were requested by us to help us and they did exactly according to the wishes of our negotiators. Shall we ever question ourselves? Did we act responsibly in the handling of the hijackers and to top it all, we had your nationalist BJP at the centre? )

    What kind of Islamic laws permit this? After all the Taliban and Pakistan govt. were following Islamic laws. You can not just disown all the things happening in the name of Islam and still declare Islam a perfect system. First go and crush such elements, and do not wait for the western powers to do it. (As far as I can see from a distance, whenever western powers have needed genuine cooperation from Muslims, the Muslims have cooperated with them. But if there are fault lines in the West,  what can the Muslims do?)

    Pakistan was accepted for peaceful co-existence, the experience have been bad, and no-one in India from non-Muslim community will support the same kind of solution for Kashmir i.e. peacefully give it to Pakistan.

    (You have made a valid point for the first time. As an Indian Muslim, I do not want Kashmir to be given to Pakistan. I am waiting for the day when we and our Hindu brothers will wean back our Kashmiri brothers to our fold. I only have to add a rider. If wishes were horses, beggars would ride. I find myself a beggar).

    The difference you see, I am for plural society where even the idol-worshipping people are accepted. If Idol-worshipping is so bad, why in your experience there are good hindu people around you? On the other hand, majority of the hindus aren not against people believing in single God, or doing spritual development according to Islam. The problem is created when you want Islamic society, and laws, and segregation. As I explained, most of the Muslims in India are genetically brothers/sisters to the Hindus then why some religious doctraine is making so big such a difference.

    My brother, Islam is not as harsh as you think. May be you have had a bad experience in Saudi for which Muslims owe you an apology. I would like to draw your attention to the intervening note of Mr. Sultan Shaheen. I am not unaware of the Beatitude of soul. Islamic Sufism is a potent force because it derives its strength from no less a personage than the prophet (PBUH). The prophet (PBUH) himself spent most part of his life in meditation (why do you think he used to confine himself in the solitude of Ghare Hira) . When monotheism (which obviously means theism), was established in the society it was the Sufis who challenged (and likes of them would challenge in future too) the mechanical understanding of Islam.  Sufis are capable of sacrificing their heads for the cause of Allah, more tellingly than the present breed of Fidayeens. But a true Sufi can never go against the love of one and the only God (which is the demand of the likes of you) . Love presages centricity of the object of love. If he sees God in all things around him that is because of the attribute of immanence of Allah and the ability of love to transcend. But please do not mix this aspect of Islam with idol-worship or polytheism because the latter destroys monotheism and dilutes theism, and thus dries up the source of all morality in this world.   None of the Muslim Sufis would ever think of destroying the monotheism of Islam. The symbolic meaning of the poems of Rumi and the utterances of Ayn Al Quzat    must be read in the context of their challenging the mechanical understanding of Islam. Muslims have traditionally tolerated with respect,  a type of Sufis known as Majzoobs  who start calling themselves God -  of course  as persons out of mind in the pursuit of God. (Mansur Al Hallaj unfortunately did not have that good luck, because he might have gone overboard by overplaying).

    Best wishes

    M.Haque


    By Manzurul Haque -



  • You are so engrossed in your discussion that I hate to intervene. But I was reminded of a fascinating study I had once done of Kashmiri mysticism that was published by the Times of India. May I quote a few paragraphs from there? Here it goes:

    The message given by Rishis or even sufis of previous orders, however, is always the same -- divine unity of all that is.  In fact  it  is  the sufis of previous order who  had  arrived  from central  Asia  who had prepared the ground for the  emergence  of Rishis  with their powerful message of religious  synthesis.  One

    poem particularly  comes  to mind. This is from  the  verses  of Sarfi, a sufi of the Kubravi Order.

    O, Sarfi ! What benefit are you going to  Šgain from the pilgrimage,

    If Kaaba, temple and tavern are not identical with you.

    O, Sarfi ! as on every sidea ray has

    fallen from His face to light the night,

    Impossible it is for you to Somnath

    has not the Kaaba's light.

    I see that comely face manifest in

    whatever I regard,

    Though I look at a hundred thousand

    mirrors in all that One face is manifest.

     

    One great bone of contention between the Muslims and Hindus is the question of idol-worship. Many a sufi and rishi, however, have no hesitation in expressing their love of idols of gods and goddesses.  In fact idol-worship is considered part of the phenomenon of mystical love. Sheikh Yaqub, a sufi of the Kubravi Order, for instance, proudly calls himself a kafir of Ishq(Divine

    Love)  and yearns to burn himself in  the  fire  of  love.  He challenges the ulema(preachers) who find fault with the love  of idols,  to tell him if anything else is more meritorious  in  the world than the crime of loving idols. He asserts repeatedly that his faith is the love of idols.

       

    The relationship between the broad-minded Sufis (mystics)  and conservative  ulema has never been  cordial  in  most Muslim  societies. But whereas the sufis were on the  margins  of society  in  other  places, in Kashmir  they  were  the  dominant influence.  This is what makes the Kashmiri Muslim society

    different from other Muslim societies. This made it possible for the sufi in Kashmir to rebuke the preacher rather than being the target of abuse as in other places.

    Sheikh Noorud Din, for instance, can afford to be highly critical of the Mullas who make it their profession to recite the Quran and get money in return. He calls them veritable patterns of hypocrisy, one of the greatest crimes in Islam. The Mullas pursue knowledge for purely selfish reasons. He describes them in these words:  "They wear big turbans and long garments; they carry sticks in their hands; they go from place to place and sell their prayers and fasts in return for food." The rishi-sufi appears to have nothing but contempt for this tribe of people:

    "A spiritual guide seems like a pot full of nectar,

    Which may be trickling down in drops.

    Having a heap of books beside him,

    He may have become confused by reading them. ŠO on examining him we found him empty in mind,

    He may be preaching to others but forgetting himself."

    "O Mulla your rosary is like a snake,

    You begin to count the beads when

    Your disciples come near,

    You eat six meals one after the other,

    If you are a Mulla, then who are the thieves?"

     

    Sheikh  Noorud-Din  is  almost  prophetic,  when  he  makes   the following prognosis:

    "The people of Kali-yugain every house

    will pretend to be saints,

    As a prostitute does when dancing.

    They will pretend to be innocent and extremely gentle,

    They will not sow beans, cotton seeds or grains.

    They will excel thieves in living by unlawful means,

    To hide themselves they will repair to a forest."    

     

    What keeps Kashmiri mystics firmly anchored in the Indian soil is their meditative technique. By and large they use variations of pas-e-anfaas (watching  the  breath). This is similar to various techniques of pranayama widely practised in India’s Hath-Yoga traditions.  These meditative techniques were being practised initially by the Saivite yogis of Kashmir before the advent of Islam. What Sufis appear to have done is that they have added the repetition of the word of Allah or huwwato their meditative technique.                            


    By Sultan Shahin -



  • I don’t know whether you have heard about Gandhiji’s doctrine ‘hate the sin and not the sinner’. He stated this, but as you know well, nobody in India practices Gandhism. On the other hand Islam is a practicing system of this principle. But sometimes the sinner identifies himself so much with his sin, that he perceives a sin-hater to be sinner-hater. However this misperception needs to be addressed with greater vigor by Muslims. You may not believe, but traditionally Muslims have hated idol-worshipping but never the man who does idol-worshipping because a Muslim also believes that an idol-worshipper can tomorrow become a non-idol-worshipper (and many respected stalwarts of Muslim history have been from the ranks of idol-worshippers, so there is really no personal enmity). Some Hindus find it difficult to either believe in or accept this mind-set.

    Even today’s congress do not believe in Gandhji’s ideas any more, but see the point only in India due to free thinking, people like Gandhiji can happen. Gandhiji could not have happened in a western country (due to over bearing of capitalists) or in Russia (Communist are just as totalitarian ) or in a Islamic country (you can not deviate from Islamic ideas formed 1500 years back).  Any society which is not based on liberty, equality, and justice should not be acceptable to us.

    It is not true that Muslims do not worship idol, they do worship Kaaba, which is an Idol. The Muslims might hate the other form of Idol worship. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaaba. In a way Islam propagates totalitarian society and there is no liberty, equality, and justice.


    About eating banana. No, it looks incorrect even to male- believers like me (Please don’t get angry with Islam). If you say that you did not have breakfast at home, and you are rushing to office without breakfast, then on the way, or in your office, they do not provide you, a declared non-Muslim, the privacy of a place to sit and eat your breakfast, then I promise, I am going to struggle to get this right, for non-Muslims. And be sure I am going to write to authorities in Saudi and if necessary request Government of India to take up this issue with Saudi Government.

    What about public transport? can someone be not in transit on the Ramadan day? In this case I was in a govt. building in Riyadh and they did not had any declared place for eating for non-believers like me. My point is different, why a society wants to even control eating of the people? Please support liberty, less number of chains in the form of this rule and that rule) better off we are!

    I also see that righteousness is also not the issue with you. Letting live is important. But how far can we avoid is the question? In fact this question will be facing you more and more.
    Righteousness is very subjective, everyone looks at the world from the filter of one’s own values, the problem is we are all brain-washed into a doctrine from child-hood and it is very difficult to remove this filter, so let us not judge others from the set of values we have (which may not be perfect)

    And please do not for a moment think that even I , (whatever kind of Muslim you treat me) think of non-Muslims as non-humans. I have to request this because I have such sweet friends amongst   Hindus that it pains me to see such generalized remarks of yours.

    My remarks are not directed towards you but towards the people who use Islam to deny equality, justice, and liberty to non-believers, justify terrorists acts against innocents when they can not fight openly.

    For example, you take success or victory as some kind of sign of righteousness. In the scheme of Islam it is not so. Failure does not disprove righteousness; please remember this, and now you apply this to Saudi Arabia or Pakistan or wherever.
    Incidentally, don’t you think that the failure of Pakistan or Saudi to reach the ideals of Islam gives the Muslims/ Islamists, a cause to fight for those ideals, and the more blatant the failure, the greater the need to fight? You know, what you and I can do? We can ask these fellows to go slow. This may work.

    If a system can not deliver, batter to adjust the system. For you Islam is everything, for me,  humanity, co-existence, liberty, justice, and equality are more important. If Islam can not deliver the results, limit it to personal spiritual development only. Muslims have many countries to experiment the Islamic ideas and they are all failures in terms of equality, justice, and liberty.  Why not for India we all respect our tradition of plural society  and support the betterment of country and accept co-existence?

    Muslims/Islamist, please experiment Islamist ideas in a Muslim country not in India, the reasons are evident -  the failure of the Muslim countries in terms of liberty, equality, and justice. It is not matter of going slow, I urge to stop, change the direction and accept pluralism (which includes the idol-worshipers). 

    I am not going to explain the idol-worshipping here (which your fore-fathers also did, imagine someone killed them for idol (other than Kaaba)  worshipping, you would not have born), you can take help of your Hindu friends to understand, if no one explains - I can.

    About Hindu Temple in Saudi or the general question of settlement in most of Arab countries, I think they consider the expats (Muslims and Non-Muslims alike) as the ones who have to necessarily go back and so they may not allow any semblance of permanent settlement there. But surely you can have your temple inside the confines of your house and pray as much as you want. I do hope there are no domiciliary visits on this count.

    So, Muslims can have mosques in a society where Muslims in minority, but non-Muslims can not have their temples? Is it not a form of discrimination?  And violation of principle of equality based on whatever reason?

    The massacres perpetrated by Muslims in India are unparalleled in history, bigger than the holocaust of the Jews by the Nazis; or the massacre of the Armenians by the Turks; more extensive even than the slaughter of the South American native populations by the invading Spanish and Portuguese

    http://www.answering-islam.org/NonMuslims/rights.htm
    Among the first to make the demand for a separate state was the writer/philosopher Allama Iqbal, who, in his presidential address to the 1930 convention of the Muslim League said that a separate nation for Muslims was essential in an otherwise Hindu-dominated subcontinent

    http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Persecution_of_non-Muslims

    Now about Muslim extremism and containment. It certainly is an issue with Muslims too. I have given a hint where and how we can let it go slow. However,  the final show-down between the moderate Muslims and the congenital extremist types will not be now, but in future, at the point when all the political territories of Muslims are vacated (or amicably settled) by the political usurpers of those territories. These defensive wars, call it by whatever name, are going to be fought with or without fatwas (so no point in spending money for fatwas) . If you are sincere in addressing these issues, the political solution can come. Else there is fight. Even fight can be moderated by allowing a level-playing field. And finally, after the political justice has been attained, and some extremists still continue to fight, out of their inherent extremism, in the cause of hatred or for mischief, then they will surely be crushed by the Muslims.

    Why can not be these people who belive in Islamic systems migrate to Islamic countries and the Islamic countries should accept them like Israel is accepting all jews. There is no shortage of land/resources with Muslim countries, and let the rest of the world live in peace. Take for example, Kashmir, if any of the Kashmir muslims do not want the secular society and believe in Islamic country, they should move to Pakistan or any other country.

     Plane hijacking which is fraught with full risk to the hijackers, is never done for gains, but is a military venture for a political cause.


    Not sure if you justify the hijacking or not but if anyone justifies the hijacking of planes;

    Still it can not be justified under international obligations and rules, that's why I am saying, Islamic perspective is dangerous when dealing with loot, plunder, attacks and do not respect non-believers rights! Talibans and hijackers got $ 300 million, is it not done for material gain? kidnapping of the innocent people in plane is justified? Even the Pakistani and Taliban govt. agencies involved in hijacking. What kind of Islamic laws permit this? After all the Taliban and Pakistan govt. were following Islamic laws. You can not just disown all the things happening in the name of Islam and still declare Islam a perfect system. First go and crush such elements, and do not wait for the western powers to do it. Pakistan was accepted for peaceful co-existence, the experience have been bad, and no-one in India from non-Muslim community will support the same kind of solution for Kashmir i.e. peacefully give it to Pakistan.

    The difference you see, I am for plural society where even the idol-worshipping people are accepted. If Idol-worshipping is so bad, why in your experience there are good hindu people around you? On the other hand, majority of the hindus aren not against people believing in single God, or doing spritual development according to Islam. The problem is created when you want Islamic society, and laws, and segregation. As I explained, most of the Muslims in India are genetically brothers/sisters to the Hindus then why some religious doctraine is making so big such a difference.

    Thanks, Suren


    By Suren -



  • I think you are subversive. That makes me wonder about your antecedents. Please take me off your mailing list.


    By Tarik -



  • The miracle of human variety is in danger of disappearing, if all of us speak alike, dress alike, eat the same food, read the same fiction and enjoy the same music. It would be a great loss to our colourful planet. Public sector needs a multilingual work force. Teachers and police officers can help with race relations in the classroom and in the community. Public sector is seeking multilingual recruits to serve multicultural Britain. The ability to speak languages from Arabic to Urdu is considered to be an asset. Linguistic skills, in addition to the usual entry criteria, will boost the number of recruits in teaching, police, medicine, nursing and the civil service. Bilingual teachers, police officers, doctors and nurses are in a better position to serve the bilingual Muslim community.  The language system has been used successfully in the United States. Mary Doherty at TTA, points out those bilingual teachers can be particularly welcome in state schools for bilingual pupils. Various studies show that bilingualism increases overall intelligence. Monolingualism leads to isolationist and inward thinking.

     

    Exposure to different languages and cultures can increase tolerance. Language learning in childhood lays the foundations for developing real fluency in that language. Every child should have the opportunity to study a foreign language and develop their interest in the culture of other nations. Languages can be seen as an important way of putting more fun into primary learning and of broadening the children experience. Learning a second language boosts your intellectual powers by physically increasing the number of nerve cells in the language centres of the brain. A study at University College London shows that the brains of bilingual people are structurally enhanced compared to the brains of people who can only speak one language. The effect is even more marked in people who learnt a second language before they were five. Speaking a second language is like having access to another world. No other subject expands mental horizons in the same way. In an ordinary inner city school in England, nearly 100 languages are spoken, yet still essentially this is still a monolingual nation. London is the most multicultural city in the world with over 300 languages spoken everyday.

     

    Bilingual Muslim children need state funded Muslim schools with bilingual teachers as role models during their developmental periods. All state schools where Muslim pupils are the majority should be designated as Muslim community schools. They are in a better position to provide balanced education by teaching the National Curriculum along with Arabic, Islamic studies, Urdu and other community languages. An Islamic atmosphere will help to develop Islamic Identity crucial for mental, emotional and personality development.

    Iftikhar Ahmad

    http://www.londonschoolofislamics.org.uk

     

     

     


    By Iftikhar Ahmad -



  •  

    Dear Mr. Surendra,

    This posting of yours makes much more sense to me, because you are now with a level playing field with me. My appeal to the critics of Islam is to come and play on a level playing field.  This same thing is happening in the battle-fields also, leading to greater degree of violence than is necessary to carry out a struggle.

    I have just visited the website of Outlook India and looked at the way some of the juvenile Hindu fanatics are dealing with the issue. There is a lone voice of ANWAAR of Dallas (who is being most logical and reasonable) to defend these very writings of Sultan Shaheen sahib , but see what they have done to him by sheer venom-spouting!

    Before I attempt to reply the specifics,  let me please clarify some of the issues further, though, if you read my detailed reply much of your questions are already answered. You make sense to me about nudity now, but my argument was only to suggest that putting a premium on nudity is socially regressive. To tell you the truth,  wearing colorful Shalwar,  Jumper and Dupatta ,  properly hiding the female body forms and head , as developed in India during the Muslim Rule (In use even by Punjabis,  especially Sikhs)  is,  to my mind perfectly okay , even from an Islamic point of view.

    Now let me please explain the paradigm, explaining which, seems to be necessary when I read some of your comments. I feel you have not got the perspective altogether.

    For example, you take success or victory as some kind of sign of righteousness.  In the scheme of Islam it is not so. Failure does not disprove righteousness; please remember this, and now you apply this to Saudi Arabia or Pakistan or wherever.

    Incidentally,  don’t you think that the failure of Pakistan or Saudi to reach the ideals of Islam gives the Muslims/ Islamists,  a cause to fight for those ideals, and the more blatant the failure,  the greater the need to fight?  You know, what you and I can do?  We can ask these fellows to go slow. This may work.

    I also see that righteousness is also not the issue with you.  Letting live is important. But how far can we avoid is the question? In fact this question will be facing you more and more.

    Mr. Surendra, please be honest in interpretation.  How did you conclude that I am opposed to Hindu people singing Ramdhun? And why only in India, I would like you to sing Ramdhun in Saudi Arabia.  Sir, my humble appeal is that Ramdhun is not sufficient enough to sweep the problems that Hindus are facing as you yourself have stated in your opening paragraph. Please do not get aggrieved over a non-existent jibe.  

    About Hindu Temple in Saudi or the general question of settlement in most of Arab countries, I think they consider the expats (Muslims and Non-Muslims alike) as the ones who have to necessarily go back and so they may not allow any semblance of permanent settlement there. But surely you can have your temple inside the confines of your house and pray as much as you want. I do hope there are no domiciliary visits on this count.

    About eating banana.  No, it looks incorrect even to male- believers like me (Please don’t get angry with Islam). If you say that you did not have breakfast at home, and you are rushing to office without breakfast, then on the way, or in your office, they do not provide you, a declared non-Muslim, the privacy of a place to sit and eat your breakfast, then I promise, I am going to struggle to get this right, for non-Muslims. And be sure I am going to write to authorities in Saudi and if necessary request Government of India to take up this issue with Saudi Government.

    I don’t know whether you have heard about Gandhiji’s doctrine ‘hate the sin and not the sinner’. He stated this, but as you know well, nobody in India practices Gandhism. On the other hand Islam is a practicing system of this principle. But sometimes the sinner identifies himself so much with his sin, that he perceives a sin-hater to be sinner-hater. However this misperception needs to be addressed with greater vigor by Muslims. You may not believe, but traditionally Muslims have hated idol-worshipping but never the man who does idol-worshipping because a Muslim also believes that an idol-worshipper can tomorrow become a non-idol-worshipper (and many respected stalwarts of Muslim history have been from the ranks of idol-worshippers, so there is really no personal enmity). Some Hindus find it difficult to either believe in or accept this mind-set.

    Now about Muslim extremism and containment. It certainly is an issue with Muslims too. I have given a hint where and how we can let it go slow. However,  the final show-down between the moderate Muslims and the congenital extremist types will not be now, but in future, at the point when all the political territories of Muslims are vacated (or amicably settled) by the political usurpers of those territories. These defensive wars, call it by whatever name, are going to be fought with or without fatwas (so no point in spending money for fatwas) . If you are sincere in addressing these issues, the political solution can come. Else there is fight. Even fight can be moderated by allowing a level-playing field. And finally, after the political justice has been attained, and some extremists still continue to fight, out of their inherent extremism, in the cause of hatred or for mischief, then they will surely be crushed by the Muslims.

    Somalian  Muslim pirates (couldn’t there be non-Muslims too?), are not different from goondas of Bihar and UP,  if they are simply looting for unlawful  gains.  Plane hijacking which is fraught with full risk to the hijackers, is never done for gains, but is a military venture for a political cause.

    And please do not for a moment think that even I , (whatever kind of Muslim you treat me) think of non-Muslims as non-humans. I have to request this because I have such sweet friends amongst   Hindus that it pains me to see such generalized remarks of yours.


    By Manzurul Haque -



  • I think I have replied to this, which has been posted else where. But can be found out by looking in to my entries.


    By Manzurul Haque -



  • Mr. Manzurul,

    I do not support any violence or riots in India, and I do not like the political situation, lawlessness, and corruption in India. We need to work for the betterment of India, believe in balance of ideas and not go for one extreme or other, e.g. balance between Burqa and nudity - nudity is not alternative to Burqa, one can dress modestly even without burqa.

    I have not attacked you personally in my postings but you have did. Still I will not focus on you but the issues. I do not live in Saudi Arabia any longer, I left that country 15 years back. You can research about SA, but they do behead people in public (though do not hang from peepal tree).

    About some of these incidents, the murky details have yet to be cleared, which never will be, because strategic intelligence activities also play role in all such incidents. But talking of the whole world, please exclude the Muslim world from this ‘entire world’. Also please exclude the whole of Africa. Please also exclude the Mongolic races including even the original Nepalese. I will request you to exclude the Latin American countries also. Then across the board please exclude all men and women of all races who are against dropping of bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, are against enslavement of men and women  by capitalist forces and capitalist media, and who are against  fashion/sex industry, arms and drug industry

    When India got independence, two countries were created. India and Pakistan, and Pakistan was the country to be according to the Islamic principles, but their entire focus has been anti-India. Pakistan is biggest example of failure of Islamic society. Pakistan has existed on help from western countries and Saudi Arabia to do the dirty jobs for these countries. 

    If you think Islamic law can wipe out all evils, Saudi Arabia has all evils. Alcohol, women, drugs, porn all are smuggled and available in that country. On the other hand extra evils in the form of discrimination is there, it is good country for male-believers but not for others outside of this category.

    The other issue is, for many Musims, the problem of Muslim extremisim is not an issue, for many Muslims it is ok to kill, loot, plunder, destroy non-Muslims and their temples and preach it is done because non-believers are evils and it is good for overall good.

    Muslim kings attacked, because it was the business or the industry of the times to extend empires by kings which could not be done by singing love songs

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Airlines_Flight_814

    What about Muslims still hijacking the planes - the one they hijacked Indian plane (flight 814) taken to Kandhar and hijackers protected by Talibans, so looting non-believers is still official business? It is not about that or this period, it is about seeing non-believers as non-humans. Look at Somalian muslim pirates, they have been harassing ships in the areal

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piracy_in_Somalia

    You will not be able to get out of this debate. It’s either reform or perish. If some fanatic Hindus think that by creating the bogey of conversion to Islam or Christianity, they can sweep the problems of Indian Hindus, under the carpet, and can satisfy them by only making them to sing ‘Ramdhuns’, they are mistaken

    If we sing Ramdhun in India, what is problem? There are so many Muslim countries to practice the Islamic law and saw results to the world, why you are opposed to Hindu people singing Ramdun? Probems are everywhere, and there are more problems in Islamic world.

    Muslims observe Roza as part of their important rituals. There are some who can’t. They are not sent to jails – for eating banana or anything. But the requirement to respect Roza and Rozadar is all pervasive in Muslim societies.  What Muslims do not like in typical Muslim societies is public ’badtamizi’, which is the prevailing culture of other cultures. When 99% of population is engaged in a spiritual penance of the highest degree, only a mischievous-in-blood, can eat banana in a public place (and throw away the skin on the road). I think such person should be made to spend one night in an Indian jail where he will be eaten away by mosquitoes.

    Considering Islam than others is a problem. I also do fast on Janmastmi, but do not force others to not eat. When a Muslim brother have eaten at 5 am, and I have not taken my breakfast, and at work I do not get consideration. Per my habit, I am still rushing to work and eating  a Banana, what is wrong with that? Now if believers consider this 'Badtamzi' I am doing that out of my habit and does not deserve to be jailled for this. Again, this may not look correct from the point of view of a male-believer. That is why I said, there is no justice, liberty, and equality in Islam.

    Islam in danger - a joke for us, seems to have become an obsession with you, which is belied by your other statement just below this. Yes, coming to violence, if you poke your nose with others too much, which in their extreme ignorance, some of your compatriots consider their birthright, then conflict is bound to arise one day

    This is already happening, look at Afghanstan, Iraq, and Pakistan. Not only I, but many people consider, Islam is not peaceful and may need some containment. If left alone, it will not let live the rest of the world peacefully.

     Muslims do not see God in any living or non-living being, and for valid reasons. How can Muslims see God in evil, when all their life is a struggle against evil?

    Please stop the notion that Muslims are peaceful and struggle against evil, let others live.

    For Muslims and Christians etc. religion is a serious philosophical and moral pursuit with the purpose of living a life here, for shaping a society of virtues, and for preparing for the next world. It is only when you digress from serious discussions and start ridiculing a religion that Islam shows its disapproval. It is only in extreme cases of enmity, challenging the collective will of a majority in a most mischievous manner, that the laws of blasphemy can be applied. An ordinary citizen/human being doing his work and doing puja in whatever way he can, is not at all to be harassed by any Muslim anywhere

    How many temples are there in Saudi Arabia? Ask your Hindu friends living in Saudi Arabia.

    The moment you lay down a law, the population gets divided into law-abiding types and law-breaking types

    For you the non-believers are law breaking, for me they are normal human being.

    Thanks,

    Surendra


    By Suren -



  • Dear Mr. Manzurul Haque,

    You are right to complain. I can see that recent postings have caused a disruption in our thread of discussion. My oral statement at the UN that you are discussing was published by Outlook newsmagazine courtesy NewAgeIslam.com as an opinion piece and sparked a heated debate on its site.

    http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?264889

    Our editorial team wanted to include that debate into our discussion as well, so as to benefit from the insights of Outlook readers. But perhaps a better way would have been to open a fresh thread rather than disrupt our own vey focused debate on the issues raised in the speech. We have reposted your comment on top of the page now and hope Mr. Suren will notice your valuable comments and be able to continue the discussion.

    Sultan Shahin


    By Sultan Shahin -



  • I find a lot of orchestrated postings emerging from some channel. Anyway, please  let me continue with the thread.

     M.Haque

    Dear Mr. Suren,

     Sorry for being late. I wasn’t getting time to post my replies (the difficulties of operating internet are enormous in our country, despite the hypes of the fanatics! Two internet connections, and both jointly failing to deliver minimum service needed to read and reply!!) ;  and meanwhile I have read your response to Mr. Ashok which has led me to revise my opinion about you,  knowing that you are perhaps an innocent seeker of ‘goodness’  in life, and are not compulsively anti-Islamic. Basically I reply to anti-Islamic types. I understand your liberal philosophy (though Brahm-centric) and so I have nothing against your yearnings, which I consider as groping in the darkness. But since some of the ideas have come on these pages I consider it still necessary to place my replies on records though I shall try to remove/change some of my words before posting: 

    My response, as earlier drafted, on your views of 28.03.2010.

    [[After this posting of mine on the subject, I feel we have expressed each other’s side fully, so I may not continue on this subject-matter further (except on the questions relating to legal system of Saudi Arabia).

     The green ones are my earlier comments quoted by Mr. Suren whose remarks are in red. The blue ones are my latest remarks in italics:

    “The question again further sir is whether nudity is good for the society or otherwise?”

     This is question of sociology and not religion, why to mix the two?  If Muslim society mixes religion with sociology, it is not my problem. I personally think there should be balance in dressing, for example, it is not good if I dictate my female family members to wear sari when I myself wear western dresses (Pants/shirts). I like the balance, and wear according to weather to be comfortable. Most of the Muslim men wear western dress but argue in favor of burqa for women – this is highly contradictory.

    Why do you equate not wearing Hijab with nudity? No one is forcing others not to wear modestly but Hijab is extreme.

     (This is a question of basic morality and welfare of the mankind in general. This is also a matter of practice and not merely a subject-matter of discussion. In any case Islam is clear on this subject of dressing, which is neither harsh nor impracticable and which is amenable to changes within the broad principles of Islam. To my mind the balance of advantage lies in Islamic practice and so there is not much with me to discuss with you on the subject. If you want to discuss how much you want the Hindu women (or men)  to hide or expose you can offer me a discussion, but chances are that I will not participate in any such discussion, because of my Muslim (I deliberately don’t write Islamic because that will amount to making too much of a positive claim. I have told earlier too, it is not easy to be a good practicing Muslim. Being a Muslim, is a challenging enterprise for any human being) upbringing. About men wearing western dress, you are too much stuck-up in dress-designing. But isn’t it surprising that in the West and in other copy-cat communities, while women go revealing their bodies in great abandon even in the most formal get-togethers, men are dressed from neck to toe?  Muslim men wear neck-to-toe because this is how they should dress along with women in Abaya.  Incidentally, I doubt if the ‘buttoned up coat and trouser’ was western dress.  About nudity. Dressing top to toe and front naked posturing are the two ends of a spectrum. As you move from one end to the other you advance towards or away from nudity. Muslims in general have a tendency to shun nudity both as a cultural practice and as a religious practice).

    “By the way Muslims do not object to non-Muslims wearing dress in a frugal manner (Contrast this with Europeans banning the Hijab. I think you have to update your awareness).”

    have visited the birth place of Islam, Saudi Arabia, It is open Jail!

    (Very interesting indeed. Were you invited there and not allowed to leave? Or your love of money is holding you up there?)

    Burqa is obligatory for all women in Saudi Arabia, Siria, Iran, Afghanstan under Taleban, Pakistan (no rule but social pressure) – both Muslim and non-Muslim.

     (I have been to picturesque and some of the extremely well managed Muslim countries. In one of the countries for which the official advisory written in English by a Western writer said that though foreigners are permitted to wear revealing dresses, they are advised to avoid such dresses in public places, because it adversely touches local sentiments (or words to that effect). I have a photograph of Abu Dhabi where some Western women tourists in short skirts and revealing dresses were attempting to enter a mosque (of all the public places). Some official on the spot very politely asked them to wear clean and freshly-washed abayas, which were provided to them. I am quite sure somebody like you will have problem with this too. However I think this is fully justified).

    In Saudi Arabia and many Muslim majority state they force non-Muslim women to wear Hijab, and do not let them drive either.

    (Only in Saudi Arabia the law is for all women (as also men) is to wear full dress (women need not to cover their faces, and thus only navel-gazing in public is prohibited, in effect). But within the confines of ones house, one can move naked. And after all, even the most diehard nudists sometimes wear clothes in public places. So what is the problem for a change?

    In most Muslim/Arab countries women drive if they can pass a driving test. I suppose Saudi is also going to pass or has already passed such rule. But this in itself is no great deal. Important thing is that it should be safe driving and licenses should not be issued by licensing authorities by taking bribes, a regular Indian practice!)

    I fully support European countries effort to integrate their society, and protect their country, the religious extremists should not be dividing countries on religious lines as happened with India in 1947.

    (I guess vis-à-vis Muslims; you are morally obliged to support them because this has been the stance of the gentlemen like you in India, even from much before the British left the subcontinent, which eventually led to the partition).

    Only when the water goes overhead like somebody starting to dangle his dick (In the spirit of free-thinking) before a Muslim family comprising of mother, sister, wife and daughter, in a manner that the family cannot run for cover also (Let us say the dangler has the power or venerated liberty to force all present to must look at his asset; or the family is physically cornered such that it cannot find a way to run away from that corner), then of course Muslim men are duty bound to fight to the finish of the issue. To that extent Muslims are intolerant.

    unless you break some law (and believe me they are logical and not something like someone got killed/arrested for eating banana in Saudi Arabia or Pakistan)

    (I guess you are gathering your wisdom from internet jokes).

    Please see for yourself, in Ramadan period eating in public places/offices is prohibited in many Muslim countries.

    http://business.maktoob.com/20090000366234/People_caught_eating_during_Ramadan_face_jail/Article.htm

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramadan#Penalties_of_eating_in_public_during_Ramadan_daytime

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=65b_1253380925

    (Muslims observe Roza as part of their important rituals. There are some who can’t. They are not sent to jails – for eating banana or anything. But the requirement to respect Roza and Rozadar is all pervasive in Muslim societies.  What Muslims do not like in typical Muslim societies is public ’badtamizi’, which is the prevailing culture of other cultures. When 99% of population is engaged in a spiritual penance of the highest degree, only a mischievous-in-blood, can eat banana in a public place (and throw away the skin on the road). I think such person should be made to spend one night in an Indian jail where he will be eaten away by mosquitoes.)

    I do not consider, harming/harassing others mentally or physically as part of free thinking. I am for non-violence, not only for human beings – irrespective of religions – but also got animals.

    (Please read ‘riots after riots in India’ by M.J.Akbar and monitor other communal riots after the book was written and also do not forget how Sajjan Kumar had organized killing of so many Sikhs in 1984, and yet the man is roaming free. Obviously you are an exceptional being in India. The way animals are led to loiter the streets of India, you seem to have done not enough for them too).

    But the Muslim majority countries divide the people in believers and non-believers and do not give equal rights to non-muslims and women. For example, in Saudi Arabia, the non-muslim & women have only ½ witness compared to Muslim-men.

    Again my ‘wisdom’ about Muslim laws comes from my one year stay of Saudi Arabia and not from internet jokes;

    (You have not fully understood the law of evidence which you could have done by being in India as well.  When it comes to credibility of a witness a judge has great subjective latitude in accepting full of it, part of it or rejecting the whole of it. There is no concept of equality in this area.

    Further, this is what Supreme Court of India has to say on Rape-case: “a girl who is a victim of an outrageous act is, generally speaking, not an accomplice though the rule of prudence require, that the evidence of the prosecutrix should be corroborated (Half a witness?) before a conviction can be founded upon it.” On the other hand chances are that in any Muslim country the allegation by a female of a sexual offence against her,  will send the man to gallows because of the probative value attached to the evidence of a Muslim woman in a case of offence against  her body. However the internet jokes that circulate, relate only to those cases in Saudi, where woman is an accomplice as being of low character generally imported from abroad, and is therefore punished by Islamic law equally harshly. In India when the charge fails in the courts, because of the findings of consensual sex, she is just let off making thus no news, and the man also goes free, smiling!

    About half and full witness, S.134 of Evidence Act of India says: “No particular number of witnesses shall in any case be required for proof of any fact”, which principle is based on the maxim of Islamic jurisprudence that evidence has to be weighed and not counted”.

    Having said that, I would like other educated Muslims to canvass for betterment of the laws of evidence in Muslim Law, if needed, and I am sure Muslims would be working on these issues provided their house is first saved from their ideological enemies who are in attacking mode as a matter of policy. So please let me have answer to the following, to let me do some canvassing for a change:

     

    Is the woman’s statement given half the weightage of man’s statement in Saudi Arabia in all cases – such as civil matters, criminal matters, property disputes and family issues?Is this also true in all cases without regard to the circumstances of the cases?Does the judge have discretion in according low probative value to the statement of a man seeing his demeanor? By same analogy does the judge have discretion in according high probative value to the statement of a woman seeing her demeanor?Do they have courts, judges and lawyers in Saudi and do they have a detailed judicial process with judicial doctrines, law of presumptions, burden of proof, shifting of burden, credibility of witness, etc. or they merely count few men as full witnesses and few women as half witnesses and after hearing them dumbly, hang the accused by the nearest peepal tree? What is the integrity of their judges, their police, their prosecutors and their lawyers? Are they honest or they are corrupt in general terms, or in comparison to the ones in a country like ours?”Segregation and ghetto-ism will go away when fanatic Hindus stop organizing riots”  Hardliner Hinduism, is the reaction of creation of Pakistan, (which in turn is a reaction of Hadliner Hinduism, which is unable to conceive of duality and thus equality) and gets strength from terrorists’ acts (as also numerous un-investigated riots in India and numerous unpunished rioters in India) that happen to be coming from Pakistan side and sometimes local Muslim involvements (Might be paid agents to make their own communities suffer) . Everyone is free to have own perception on this, and many times it is political game played by  so called muslim leaders(Like Jinha) and Hindu leaders (like Advani). (While Jinnah is dead and gone , Advani is live and kicking with the strong help of nationalists like you) While BJP wants to get power on Hindutva, Congress wants to get power of reservation. (Why can’t this occur to men like you that when Muslims are the only most prominent community identified as a community with consequences like riots and all-round discriminations, then it is certainly appropriate that this Ruling structure of India should take  some affirmative action for them and that precisely is the recommendation of the Sachar Committee also) 

    This situation can be improved by electing progressive leaders as MPs/MLAs and not the people who promise easy way. It is in our hand, vote for better candidates and not for one from our community, who is selfish, corrupt, power hungry, organize riots, segregation, and nepotism. Our inability of electing good leaders is leading towards chaos.

    (You can never do that because your consciousness of good and evil is underdeveloped. Men, who are contesting elections, are men of straw in the language of Churchill, rooted in crime and not in ethics. If you are looking for solace, please think differently and freely).

    “Muslims are religion bound to spread-out, in case you did not know”

    Good to know.

    “I do not preach Islam. But if you ever read it, you will not find it stifling,  but rather liberating”

    I am really confused here, as like other Abrahmic organized religion, Islam also divides the world in believer and non-believer, and does not address universal applicability of positive aspects like compassion, liberation, consciousness, seeing God in all leaving beings, and so on.

    (This world, as it is today - which includes the practice of compassion, liberation, consciousness etc. - is so, because of Abrahamic religions, which are based on sacrifices for the cause of others and not merely on bogus sermonizing. The moment you lay down a law, the population gets divided into law-abiding types and law-breaking types. Therefore divisions to a certain extent are inherent in a social situation and we should not be unduly worried about this, because I understand not only sociological growth, but even biological growth is also linked with some sort of division process.  However about religious divisions my view is, which I am sure is also the view of Islam, that ‘unto each, his own religion’. With this message Islam gives recognition to the division process, while at the same time lays down a law on co-existence. Now for communities that are not conceptually tuned to the law of division, acceptance of ‘the other’ for co-existence becomes too difficult a task and they tend to be violent with weak (With the strong, they will obviously not dare). For the Muslim kingdoms of India the existence of Hindus alongside was not a problem, but for the Hindu Rule in India after 1947, the existence of minorities is a problem.  

    An yet, if you are making an honest comment on the need for the Muslims to further develop positive aspects like compassion, liberation, consciousness, and so on, I am fully with you, because these are the ultimate aims of Islam,  after  all these sacrifices.  But if you say that these qualities are found more in systems other than Islamic, then I do not agree because it is not true).

    seeing God in all lIving beings

    (Sorry, Muslims do not see God in any living or non-living being, and for valid reasons. How can Muslims see God in evil, when all their life is a struggle against evil? )

    So, my question is – What is difference between Islam and other religions apart from historical aspects?  why there is so much violence associated with Islam, I do not feel safe to visit any Muslim majority country.

    (This fear may be coming from some sort of hallucination inherent in your ideology. I have a Hindu friend here in India who had to come back from Riyadh because of some unavoidable circumstances and he never misses a day to recollect how happy and safe he felt in Riyadh vis-à-vis here. Many Hindus I have seen lined up in Delhi to go to countries like even Iraq and Afghanistan, which are under criminal depredations of the Western powers, for the time being).

    You can be arrested for eating Banana in public place during Ramdan fasting period;

    (Already explained)

     the Muslims are most intolerance when it comes to the religious practice. You can be arrested for blasphemy for criticizing Islam for example in these countries, while the Muslims can criticize your religion. They do not give you right of defending your religion. Please check your facts.

    (For Muslims and Christians etc. religion is a serious philosophical and moral pursuit with the purpose of living a life here, for shaping a society of virtues, and for preparing for the next world. It is only when you digress from serious discussions and start ridiculing a religion that Islam shows its disapproval. It is only in extreme cases of enmity, challenging the collective will of a majority in a most mischievous manner, that the laws of blasphemy can be applied. An ordinary citizen/human being doing his work and doing puja in whatever way he can, is not at all to be harassed by any Muslim anywhere.)

    By the way, have you ever visited Saudi Arabia? To understand Islam you must, visit Saudi  Arabia and see yourself, how much Islam is intolerant when it comes to non-Muslims and women (both Muslim and non-Msulim)

    (You have told the banana story to which I have given you the reply. I know of the experiences of my Hindu friend from Riyadh, I have told you. I have any number of close relatives and Muslim friends in nearly all parts of Saudi and of course in all other Arab countries. But I have never considered living in Saudi for an altogether different reason. My wife has in the last two years started wearing black ‘abaya’ here in India, out of her own choice and I am a bit too un-modern to try and stop her. So Abaya is also not a problem for us. However for us, money is not everything, so I do not want to work in Saudi. The reason why I do not like to go to Saudi is (But I shall Insha Allah be going for hajj one day, as a proud Indian), because I have been told that these fellows look down upon Indians (whether Muslims or non-Muslims) as something to be avoided for a social company.  But I don’t blame them totally. I personally know many Indians who are working there in Saudi on fraudulent degrees/diplomas/ experience certificates and they come here and shamelessly report that those Arabs are such great duffers that they cannot detect how incompetent we are!! On the other hand I am almost dead sure that those Arabs are being simply charitable. I know of their spirit of charity. But respect they don’t give to Indians and that is my problem with them. I think you are facing the same problem, and so instead of trying to impress them with your libertarianism, I suggest you come back with your family and live in India like me, and forget about the Laxmi part. Laxmi is merely a Maya).

    “(So please do your own thinking/reasoning and remember that there is at least one person who had not agreed with you (Using his free-thinking), that free-thinking alone could take care of these questions, if free thinking means not taking a cue from anything.)”

    I do not need anyone to agree with me, I am not looking for enforcement of ideas from others. What questions? The organized religions and reactionary ideas (like hardcore hindutava)  to the religious ideas could be in the root of all these issues.

    (The root of all this lies in the existence of evil which is a reality – as much a reality as the human soul is, as much a reality as God, in all His Majesty is).

    [But non-Muslim males at large can prostitute with N number of women without the fear of going to hell (or being stoned to death), and if you say that the same equality exists for non-Muslim women, then I don’t agree, because I know for sure overwhelming majority of Indian women are ‘pativarta’, and only a handful are thrown into professional prostitution. A society which happily tolerates prostitution (bulk of the money going to the male pimps, male police and male organizers) cannot claim gender equality. By the way Islam does not believe in physical equality between males and females].

    I do not support any type of sexual misconduct and support marriage between one man and one woman. One wrong does not make other wrong look good (or right). Also, support the systems (including religion) which are based on liberty, justice, and equality – not only for male believers, but for all.

    (And if you think that you can just wish away (By assuming bogus moral posturing that two wrongs do not make one right) these problems, by singing some love anthems to God, it shall not be. Had it ever been possible to bring social justice so lazily, there was no need for Islam at all. Muslim men (as individuals) are under obligation to protect women from harm’s way, arising out of the lust of man (as a class). Please don’t get your fixation that a women under veil is the most unfortunate woman on earth. A visit to any of the thousands of brothels dotted in the cities of India (or blue film industries in the West) will tell you how women are made to use their bodies in the extreme (forget about the dignity part) and how they are ultimately fleeced of the major part of the money exchanged in the business).The religions should restrict themselves to spiritual development and not try politics, economics, or justice as there are better systems available today

    (Suppose my finding is that the optimum of all these, is achievable in Islam or through the route of Islam, could this be a problem for somebody else? And if it is, will somebody else violently like to react against me?) 

    No, no one should act violently against others due to differences in belief; Most of the Hindus are non-violent, (I don’t agree, because the participants in the riots are most of they) Buddha, Mahavir, Vivekananda, and Gandhi like people can happen in India only (May be, but Prophets are born for the world, and they are not geography-bound). It is sad that for Indian Muslims, our own heritage and philosophy is not worth of paying attention and learn a lesson or two from the teaching of these great people, (every good thing said by Swamy Vivekananda and Mahatma Gandhi is acceptable to Muslims and they themselves had no grudge against Muslims. It is only Hindu fanatics who have grudge. About Lord Budhha and Lord Mahavira, the less said the better,  because on the strength of their great spiritual pursuits, we Muslims do not mind even considering them prophets for humanity in their own time) but learn hatred spread by people based outside of the country (This is your biased presumption against Muslims of India). This question must be asked by Muslims to themselves, are we better off playing in the hands of negative politicians? (Muslims have no choice. The negative is yours. The politicians are yours. If you run this country better surely we Muslims will be beneficiaries, as you might be benefiting from Saudi these days). Having already portioned India once, do we still keep crying wolf of ‘Islam in danger’? Islam is not in danger in India, it is in danger in Afghanstan, it is in danger in Pakistan, it is in danger in Iran, and it is in danger in Iraq, because of terrorist acts emanating from these countries and unwillingness to coexist (Don’t worry about ‘Islam in danger’ which is spoken more as a satire among Muslims than as a reality, because the reality is that Islam lies in the hearts of Muslims and when all religions will be obliterated from the face of the earth by the forces of evil the true religion of Islam will remain in the hearts of men and women. That is why we have the institution of Hifz).

    India is the country where you will find no religions were ever prosecuted except the indigenous one. (When you violently kill and loot a community on religious grounds and do not give full representation to the community on religious grounds, what is it? When you do not constitutionally allow freedom of choice for religion, what is it? By changing the definition of a word in ‘your’ dictionary, can you change the reality?)  Zoroastrians when prosecuted by Muslims in Iran got refuge in India. (Iran was not a country or for that matter Arabia too was not a country that could be conquered. Transition to Islam was a historic choice made by those great nations. Christians chose to live peacefully and they have been living in those areas since then, but Zoroastrians, a part of Iranians,  made a historic choice of migrating with their families,  wealth and vessels and Muslims had no problems with this choice of theirs either)  that Jews lived peacefully for centuries in India (As also in Arabia).

    We even did not call ourselves Hindus, this is the name given to us by outsiders who came to India. On the other hand, Islam (Muslim kings attacked, because it was the business or the industry of the times to extend empires by kings which could not be done by singing love songs)  attacked, looted, and destroyed India several times, (Everything good in India that you see today is the gift of Muslims, followed to some extent by the British. Not for nothing was the last fledgling king Bahadur Shah Zafar chosen by consensus to lead the first war of Indian Independence, and he paid a price for this. But your tinged mind just can’t see this)  and still terrorist attacks are directed towards India from Muslim countries (It is a mischief of Pakistan alone and a  change of your mindset will help our Government in its fight against  Pakistan). Aurangzab levied jajiya on Hindus  (about Jizaya the information is sketchy, and if he did that,  I do not approve of it) , in their own country (Aurangzeb was the Emperor of India, which he and his forefathers had inherited in battlefields, and not in chaupals;  and people by and large were happy and united under him in the form of one country. While sacrificing the comfort of a luxurious life in Delhi he was able to unify as one political entity what you see as India today. However much fanatic Hindus may hate him and cite him, well-informed  Hindus can never repay his debt of uniting the Hindus politically, which has given such great power to some undeserving mouths today).  Muslims partitioned this country in 1947 (Hindus partitioned it) and since then constantly attacking (which Muslims are attacking?), when they cannot win conventional war, they have restored to dirty techniques of terrorism and brain washing youths in Kashmir and in other parts of the country(why should Indian Muslims brain-wash themselves. Apparently in your communal exuberance  you have forgotten the distinction between Indian Muslims and Pakistani Muslims, which is not a surprise to me), Nadirshah and Temurllang looted, burnt Delhi and, took Man and Women slaves from India (Man, they looted a Muslim-Delhi and the Muslims of Delhi). Chitor saw Jauhar fourteen times (what cock and bull stories. If principality rebels, what is an emperor supposed to do, show Aarti). All this due to ‘peaceful’ Islam (I refuse to call you a fanatic Hindu, because some of them are quite knowledgeable.)!

     But still we have prevailed, and we will.

    (Wish you good luck  - as an Indian or as a Hindu?)

     (It takes two hands to clasp. Muslims do say: Please limit yourself to your spiritual development, and let me do my spiritual development in my own way. But it seems some non-Muslim men have an agenda for the spiritual development of Muslims. I personally feel this should not be the method)

     I am not sure what to say here, but do not pay attention to those people. By the way, it is only with organized Abrahamic religions who seek converts.

    (You will not be able to get out of this debate. It’s either reform or perish. If some fanatic Hindus think that by creating the bogey of conversion to Islam or Christianity, they can sweep the problems of Indian Hindus, under the carpet, and can satisfy them by only making them to sing ‘Ramdhuns’, they are mistaken).

     Why non-Muslims should be concerned? Because, if the personal laws do not provide justice to some members of the community- especially women and encourgage poverty & segregation, it is matter of concern.

    (Such obsession with other community will lead to fanaticism because you will, in your mind, perceive to be having a right to dictate terms to other community, without the ability to do so. You will then like to take recourse to violence and terror-tactics  like riots, which in fact is the genesis of all round violence visible in Indian society today,  even without  reaching the point of terrorism)

    I nowhere recommend violence, this is again ‘Islam in danger’ kind of thinking.

    (Islam in danger - a joke for us, seems to have become an obsession with you, which is belied by your other statement just below this. Yes, coming to violence, if you poke your nose with others too much, which in their extreme ignorance, some of your compatriots consider their birthright, then conflict is bound to arise one day).

    So I feel you should not be unduly worried about terrorism as such exaggerated perception

    Entire world is worried for Islamic terrorism, and there are evidences. Please see the truth.

    Examples;

    India – so many bomb blasts, Mumbai train blasts, Jaipur, Vanasi, Ahmedabad, Pune, Bombay attacks and so on.

    USA – 9/11 attacks by Muslim terrorists.

    Hadley’s confession in Mumbai attacks– and USA prohibits any torture.

    Sikhs asked to pay Jajiya in Pakistan, and beheading.

    Taliban creation by Pakistan.

    (About some of these incidents, the murky details have yet to be cleared, which never will be, because strategic intelligence activities also play role in all such incidents. But talking of the whole world, please exclude the Muslim world from this ‘entire world’. Also please exclude the whole of Africa. Please also exclude the Mongolic races including even the original Nepalese. I will request you to exclude the Latin American countries also. Then across the board please exclude all men and women of all races who are against dropping of bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, are against enslavement of men and women  by capitalist forces and capitalist media, and who are against  fashion/sex industry, arms and drug industry.)

    can lead to further fanaticism. But I can tell you the ways of alleviating the Muslims from poverty should you be interested.

    How?

    (Just by concentrating on your own well-being with the help of Riyals that you are earning, and attending to the well-being of human beings crying for help in the Hindu fold (Since you are not being charged with Jizya or even tax in Saudi (30% in India), why don’t you consider doling out charity-money at par with Zakat, for your Hindu brethren? This will keep you (with ‘you’ I mean non-Zakat , non-Jizya paying NRI Hindus) also away from anti-Muslims feelings).

    Mr. Haque,

    I have read your replies; one question;

    1. Why only Muslim male can have exactly max. four wives? not three and not five.

    please see, what the free thinking (in your view) in Afghanstan has led to;

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/hindi/india/2010/03/100325_muslim_quota_sc_awa.shtml

    (Her family did not emigrate to Saudi Arabia or a muslim country, by the way!)

     (Because law has to be exact. It cannot be three and a half, or a quarter to five. Had it been three, you would have asked why not four. There is no logic in such questions and can take birth only in a thinking-free mind. Four is the optimum maximum considered by God to be able to take care of the social problems, it seeks to address. And once law is laid down it is to be obeyed, even if it enjoins upon the man to be rigorously fair to all the wives in matters of provisions.

    Couldn’t open the links. But if you are lingering on the issue of woman’s position in Afghanistan by citing one odd example of a family, I can cite in proportion, one thousand such cases in India, where women have been badly treated. Please don’t get you fixation that a women under veil is the most unfortunate woman on earth. A visit to any of the thousands of brothels dotted in the cities of India (or blue film industries in the West) will tell you how women are made to use their bodies in the extreme (forget about the dignity part) and how they are ultimately fleeced of the major part of the money exchanged in the business. And if you think that you can just wish away (By assuming bogus moral posturing that two wrongs do not make one right) these problems, by singing some love anthems to God, it shall not be. Had it ever been possible to bring social justice so lazily, there was no need for Islam at all. Muslim men (as individuals) are under obligation to protect women from harm’s way, arising out of the lust of man (as a class).)

    I have lived in India (for 30 years) and Saudi Arabia (for one year) and my views are based on my experiences.

    (I have never considered living in Saudi for an altogether different reason. I have a large number of relatives there and for me going there is the easiest option. My wife has in the last two years started wearing black ‘abaya’ here in India, out of her own choice and I am a bit too un-modern to try and stop her.  For us money is not everything, so I do not want to work in Saudi. The reason why I do not like to go to Saudi is (But I shall Insha Allah be

     going for hajj one day, as a proud Indian), because I have been told that these fellows look down upon Indians (whether Muslims or non-Muslims) as something to be avoided for a social company.  But I don’t blame them either. I personally know many Indians who are working there in Saudi on fraudulent degree/diploma/experience certificate and they come here and shamelessly report that those Arabs are such great duffers that they cannot detect how incompetent we are!! On the other hand I am almost dead sure that those Arabs are being simply charitable. I know of their spirit of charity)

    Please visit some of the western countries and visit Saudi Arabia, Afghanstan, Pakistan and see the difference for yourself.

    (At old age no Indian would like to go to the West, because the very charm of going to the West for free sex is not there. But of course this presumption must also fail, with Indian men like N.D Tiwari who at 85 and as Governor of an Indian State in Rajbhawan, was seen nude in bed with three nude Indian women frolicking with him in exchange for some promised official favors. Since the promise failed the video-recordings appeared!!

    Before all this ‘lafra’ started, Mr. Kushwant Singh is on record saying that he had found Pakistan, a prosperous well-managed, modern country. I had some Hindu friends at Delhi who had gone as a business delegation to Bangladesh and on their return they were shell-shocked to narrate how well-managed that country was vis-à-vis India.

    Afghanistan was and will always remain a beautiful place of gallant males and beautiful brides. Let the USA stew in its own juice for some more time).

    Thanks,

    M.Haque ]]


    By Manzurul Haque -



  • Somebody is busy cutting and pasting remarks from unrelated topics. This way you will destroy this, as a platform for serious discussion. There is no continuity. But funny remarks most of these are,  picked up from Islam bashing sites.


    By Manzurul Haque -



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