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Islamic Society (09 Mar 2012 NewAgeIslam.Com)


  • Thank you for posting the webcast! It definitely brings a little more clarity to the issues involved. It would appear that here we find a straightforward case of convincing the donors to insist along with the Quran Education, Some side subjects; For example, Sura Yasin, third part onwards only scientific issues are dealt with, God has created everything in pairs, for instance, the phenomena of reproduction & Growth in Agriculture, such as fruit trees, the sustenance of subterranean life, etc are dealt with.-
     A clear case of adding Biology & Zoology & other life Sciences to the curricula, The movements of the Sun & Moon in Sura Yasin, and the reference to their orbits, a clear case of introducing Planetary Sciences, Physics and Geography to the curricula The reference to the Honey Bee in Sura Nahl, Verses 68 & 69 - A clear case of bringing to the fore, knowledge & issues of how they are used in pollination and the application to the Agricultural Sciences, I am not aware if our brothers are aware that the enormous crops of Almond, Grapes, Oranges in California & elsewhere have only been feasible through extensive use of Honey Bees and their contributions as a vehicle for pollination and how the Agriculture Production could collapse due to the recent viral attack on the Honey Bee & the phenomenon known as “Bee Colony Collapse.”Again in Sura Yasin, the reference to the Ships & Boats “And similar vehicles”- a clear case of introducing curricula related to Marine engineering. In Sura Ale Imran, Ayat 27: “You cause the night to enter the day, and you cause the day to enter the night; and you bring the living out of the dead, and you bring the dead out of the living. And you give provision to whom, you will without account."  (27) Clearly is a case of introducing Geography, Astronomy, Science of evolution, to the curricula.
    The last part of the Sura Yasin deals with the Dairy Industry & its significance in Life & Economics, In Sura Ghashia, for example, “Afala Yanzaroona, ilal ibili Kaifa Khuleqat, Wal ilasSamaai Kaifa Rufeat, wa ilala jibaale kaifa nusebat, Wa ilal Arze kaifa sutehat , will clearly portend to having a case for Geography and Sciences.This is the line that we should take; and not merely criticize what is already being done!With Kind Regards,Mohammed Ali Rizvi Markham ON Canada

    By Mohammed Ali Rizvi - 4/16/2012 11:40:21 PM

  • The real character of the Muslims and the purpose of mosques can be seen in the realisation of the truth by Mr. Rizvi
    By Raihan Nezami - 4/6/2012 9:44:41 AM

  • Running a Madrasah or for that matter any establishment is not an easy task. Particularly so, in resource deprived countries & resource deprived communities.Try doing so yourself & see- funding, keeping discipline, commitment, health & hygiene issues, and of course, Learning the religious text!Any school for that matter provides a place for bonding, making new friends, exchanging ideas, sharing experiences, sharing in each others’ values in times of need & otherwise.The only objection as I see here is to the curriculum.

    It would be a better idea, to use the already established set-ups but go further to invigorate it by adding Libraries, Books, sports facilities, and more funding.In a Mosque in New Delhi, just passing by, at afternoon prayer time, I happened to check in, and there was a lunch in progress! I was heartily invited to join the Meal in very simple settings, to some lentils and bread. Never in my life have I had a mealso good with all the little ones sitting in rows around me.

    Even when there was not much to go round, the little hands kept offering me more & more of what food was available! As soon as it was over, some cleaned up the place some boys did the dishes, some served Water. Never will I ever forget that gathering! May God bless them all and their good Teachers!It is very easy to criticize but is there a Plan B for all these little guys in poor countries like India, Pakistan and Bangladesh?Kind RegardsMohammed Ali RizviMarkham ON Canada

    By Mohammed Ali Rizvi - 4/6/2012 7:13:46 AM

  • @sadaf Why must hindus follow ram raj to the sect of people how does not have any belief of rama and who does not care about hindus whether it is kashmir or pakistan.
    By satwa gunam - 3/19/2012 10:57:35 AM

  • At least majority of Hindus are notsupporting Narendra Modi or even his party in states like: Punjab, Haryana,Delhi, Uttar Pradesh, Bihar, West Bengal, Assam, and 8 North eastern states,Jammu and Kashmir, Kerala, Tamil Nadu, Andhra Pradesh, Orissa. How many statesthese are? I hope you are counting on your fingers of your feet by now afterhaving exhausted that of hands. Even in Maharashtra, majority of Hindus do notlike Narendra Modi. So which majority you are talking about? Yes if we countonly RSS shakhas then I can hope that he is liked by majority. But you neverknow even there is also a strong lobby favouring Nitin Gadkari over NarendraModi as Modi in order to appear taller has stepped on the tail of RSS and hashurt its image by making RSS appear gang of murderers. Nitin Gadkari has muchbetter and cleaner image and has good organizing ability too. Anyway so in noway majority of Hindus are with Narendra Modi. 

    Come to second part. When you agree withwhat happened in Gujrat was not between Hindus and Muslims it is your makkarito not go ahead and agree that it was the unjust Chief Minister who brought badname to Hindus. As for talking about Kashmir, your argument is that sinceMuslims of Kashmir do not come out to support Hindus in Kashmir, so it is OKthat Muslims of Gujarat should be punished! What nonsense logic is this Satwa.Are you out of your mind? Hang a lean and thin person because the fatter onewho was supposed to be hanged is difficult to hang. Wah!! 

    Lastly, Narendra Modi has written hisname alongside that of Ravan who too had made Lanka of Gold, as it is saidabout him, but was unjust. No matter how much Narendra Modi may bring FDI inGujarat. He forgot his rajdharm and such adharmi will no way be supported bysuch Hindus who believe in dharm. For adharmis like you and your Jansanghibrigade, haven’t you heard of that song ‘Ramchandra kah gaye siya se (I hopeyou know what is siya for, it is for Mother Sita, his wife, and I felt need toexplain this because you being Jansanghi are adharmi so possibly you do notknow all these), aisa Kalyug aayega, Muslim Hindu ko Hindu ki hi dharm yaaddilayega.

    By sadaf - 3/18/2012 12:57:35 PM

  • @sadaf I don't want to make any issue as Muslim vs Hindus and I agree with your statement that what is happened in Gujarat was not not directly between Muslim and Hindus. But the following points needs to be pondered : Why is the majority of Hindus are supporting the minority who did the mistake to repeated come back to power ? In the same manner why is that the common Muslim in Kashmir never came out in protest for the protection of Hindus ? Rather being judgemental, I leave this question for all to contemplate dispassionately as wishingful thinking and truth can sometime be poles apart.
    By satwa gunam - 3/17/2012 10:53:14 PM

  • i think sultan shahin has a lak of knowledge about MADARSA so he should take admission and learn from there whats the actual sin. And he is SULTAN SAHIN IF HE IS MULSIM SO CALLED THEN ALSO READ ABOUT THE CONTINUATION OF INDIA WHAT SAID ABOUT RELIGIOUS FREEDOM
    By parwez - 3/17/2012 6:28:55 PM

  • Satwa don't make it a Hindu VS Muslim thing. The other day only, Sanjiv Bhatt was saying, the Gujrat pogram is being projected as Hindu Vs Muslim riot but it was clearly a Jansanghi Narendra Modi who was responsible for whatever happened after the Godhra incident. The culprit is not Hindu and Muslims should not blame Hindus because this is what Narendra Modi wants to happen. He want distance between Hindus and Muslims, but Muslims must understand that Narendra Modi and Jansanghis are the problem and not all Hindus. And true to what he said as Muslims we know that not all Hindus are like Narendra Modi and Jansanghis. Most of them are neutral and some of them are even as supportive to Muslims as Sanjiv Bhatt.
    By sadaf - 3/17/2012 4:13:24 PM

  • @ Younus Sb: I am in full agreement with Mr. Sultan Shahin upon his scholarly views as well as I appreciate your opinion explaing the present day scenario of the Madarsa education which needs drastic changes in syllabus and text-book, teachers' appointment, organising body, attitude and approach of the Muslims in finalising its role in the community's development to bring about it to the lavel of mainstream education. Madarsa education must be modernised and go hand in hand with the scientific education to meet the needs of the learners. Only then, it can serve its basic porpose. Otherwise, the Madarsa learners will not be able to cope with the present-time professional pressure as well as social demands to be secular, liberal and moderate
    By Raihan Nezami - 3/15/2012 11:36:18 PM

  • @Raihan Nizami,Sonika,ms, Khalid: When Sultan Shahin screens madrassa education – he is talking about present day scenario. The truth is even if you look around all the Muslim countries in the world, you will find that the syllabus of madrassas are not geared to groom it students in the arts, sciences and disciplines that are needed to qualify in the premium job market – let alone command a competitive edge there. He is talking about this very day. In the past era, most of our forebear had madrassa education and many of them did well in life – in terms of acquiring higher civil education post madrassa education and getting good jobs. But the syllabus of civil education meanwhile has remarkably changed/ advanced, while the madrassa curriculum, especially of those numerous units that have mushroomed at the back of petro-dollars, remains heavily loaded with theological disciplines and grossly under-represented in subjects that are relevant to the job market in the expanding business and industrial world and other fields that have evolved with the progress of civilization.

    So the product of these madrassas are definitely handicapped in the job market and end up as a moulvi or muezzin in a mosque or a private teacher to children for Qur’anic recitation. But these jobs command very low wages, because of supply and demand, and its lack of any financial bearing / return.

    Besides, there is no religious ground to bar the madrassa students from acquiring universal knowledge in all the fields and faculties as taught in secular / civil educational institution, and there is no religious ground to divide the domain of knowledge between Islamic and non-Islamic. Such differentiation was not done in the early centuries of Islam when all the prevalent fields of knowledge – mathematics, chemistry, medicine, geography, astronomy were not only taught in madrassas but were intensively researched and the base of scientific and universal knowledge was greatly advanced. But in later era, the orthodoxy rejected universal sciences and disciplines and unlawfully divided knowledge between Islamic and non-Islamic.

    God alone is the fountainhead of all knowledge and there is no justification to have a madrassa curriculum that under-represents universal sciences and knowledge – as is the case today – just the opposite to that of early Islam. The writer has discussed the issue at some length in the articles referenced below that those interested to get to the bottom of the issue facing the Muslims in education field and global competition today may read.
    1. An Open Reminder to the Ulamas: Rejecting universal knowledge as un-Islamic is brazenly un-Islamic and kufr (denial of truth)
    2. The evolution of the Hadith sciences and the Prophet’s Sunna and the need for a Major Paradigm Shift regarding the role of the Hadith Corpus and the scope of Madrassa education.

    By muhammad yunus - 3/15/2012 8:04:51 PM

  • Overgeneralisation, of course, or hyperbolic statement should be avoided in matters of general masses and communities as in absent of facts and figures, we can not blame all the madarsas and their students. The author is absolutely justified in his assessment in a general term, whereas it is also a fact, there are numerous madarsa-educated people who have reached reach to the summit in the quest for their career. There are still some people in my home town who appreciate my father's genuine role in their educational life when he used to teach in a Madarsa. Although Madarsas are quite helpful in imparting religious teaching to our children, we can not ignore the inappropiate syllabi, obsolete methodology, lack of dedicated teachers, absence of motivation, untrustworthy organisation and above all inability to equip our children with scientific knowledge. If such lacunas are removed, Madarsas can serve our community in a better way.
    By Raihan Nezami - 3/15/2012 2:04:53 PM

  • I dunno why people tend to generalise facts so easily... Even i have been to amadrassa for my religious education and today alhamdulillah, I am well placed in a good job. So are many of my colleagues. The problem lies in the media. Western media tended to generalise madrassas as generators of mujahideen during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. Termed as freedom fighters trained in Pakistani madrassas, they were later branded as terrorists during the American invasion. Now the blot has become so indelible that when people think of madrassas, they think of terrorists or uneducated mullahs. I have seen madrassas in my village which help children clear their matriculation so that they become eligible for atleast the most basic jobs. Deoband scholars have cleared civil exams. And i am pretty sure the author himself has not been to a madrassa. So Mr. Author plz stop generalising facts and look into more importnat issues facing the Muslim ummah. May allah help u in ur way.
    By sm - 3/15/2012 1:00:50 PM

  • “Madrasa Education is a Clear Violation of the Human Rights of Children” is a bitter truth of Muslim society of Indian subcontinent. One cannot generalise it that all the madarsa’s are following similar syllabus and have the same pattern of education, as my father, brother husband and other family members have got their basic education from madras, where they got only religious education but no extremist ideology or orientation. One can regard this example as an exceptional but there are many more. Yes, the time has completely been changed along with educational pattern, living style and mainly moral values, and these Madarsa’s and their curriculum are not echoing with this visible change. We should take this as a wakeup call as suggested by the editor of this site, Mr Sultan Shahin, otherwise it will be too late. People may give the excuse that these poor students have no alternative, but to join, it is not going to work; it will make the problem further worse. And my humble suggestion being a thinking community, we have to think and solve this problem as soon as possible to leave a safe future for coming generation.
    By Sonika Rahman - 3/15/2012 3:19:53 AM

  • @ Khalid: If you are a Muslim and want to understand this site, please spend some time on this site, go through the articles being posted and the comments of the readers for thoroughly. I believe your opinion will be drastically changed and you will estimate the real value and services being done by this site for the sake of the survival and stability of Islam. The problem lies in your non-understanding of the grave danger and the criticism our religion is facing due to some impractical, unsocial and un-Islamic practices in Islam. The professional Mullahs further aggravate the already critical practices by their unwise and un-Quranic Fatawas. Recently, Darul Uloom Deoband has issued a Fatawa declaring the whole-body-scan as un-Islamic, the thing they forget that in case of liabilities and compulsion, Islam softens its rules - that makes it quite liberal and practical religion. I hope you stand it better.
    By Raihan Nezami - 3/13/2012 1:33:32 PM

  • you can take your new age islam which has nothing to do with Quran and Sunnah turn it sideways and shove it up your masters ass sitting in vatican city you are nothing but his puppets with no religious background like frogs that comes out of nowhere after the rain
    By khalid - 3/13/2012 11:51:12 AM

  • @Shamshad Elahee Shams. I fully endorse all the six points you mentioned with the exception of ‘banning any religious oriented education.’ If you are a Muslim as your name suggests, you must be aware that such a suggestion will fall on deaf ears – no it will be strongly resisted, and in the process your other valuable suggestions will be quashed. Not only the existing products of madrassas, running in millions, but also the vast majority of ordinary Muslims who remain glued to the TV to listen to an Islamic preacher or ‘alim will not take your this particular point. In the education domain, it will be a repetition of Kamal Ata Turk’s failed revolutionary reforms.

    Besides, the madrassas are historically ‘religion oriented.’ They have a democratic right to remain so. No power or law on earth can strip them of this right. It is like asking all the Muslims to stop listening to TV preachers on the obvious ground that there is no divine reward for merely listening to a sermon, especially when one listens to the same thing every day, but what he listens does not inspire him to serve humanity. No one will listen to you. So you have to cut steel with steel. This is attempted in the following articles that draws on the Qur’an to frame a cut and dry ‘religious’ case to incorporate universal sciences in the madrassa in line with civil/ secular educational institutions. As they are somewhat exhaustive ijtihad driven discourses, their conclusions are also tabled below for your ready reference. I will look forward to your views.
    1. An Open Reminder to the Ulamas: Rejecting universal knowledge as un-Islamic is brazenly un-Islamic and kufr (denial of truth)


    Conclusion: “It is high time that the Muslim Ulama abolish any division of knowledge between Islamic and un-Islamic and incorporate the study of physical sciences and other universal faculties and professional disciplines in the curriculum of the madrassas. Obviously any major transformation in educational curriculum has to come in stages, but having lost almost five centuries, there is no more time to lose. Today, the participation of Muslims in academic and professional fields, cultural arenas, and prestigious and lawful avenues of livelihood in practically all Muslim minority countries is abysmally low as their educational, professional and cultural attainments are handicapped by their own or their parents’/ancestors’ madrassa based education. In historical perspective, if any single agency has to bear the blame for the introductory poetic outburst, it is probably the Ulama and the orthodox Islam - their throwback influence and reductive madrassa curriculum as this discourse amply demonstrates – however, bitter this may sound.
    In fact, the Ulama can probably redeem themselves by taking an about turn in their attitude by pro-actively espousing universal knowledge as suggested above, and also adopting appropriate Western language as a compulsory subject in their curriculum, for a Western language, notably English, is far richer and advanced in interpreting the kalimat (manifestations) of God and harnessing God’s blessings as the Qur’an enjoins than any other language at this moment.”
    2. The Opponents of the Right to Universal Education (RTE) to the Muslims are the enemies of Indian Muslims.
    Conclusion: Given the social, cultural and economic decline of Muslims in India that hardly needs any elaboration and the fragmentation, divergence and academic stagnancy of Islamic theologically oriented institutions including the madrassas and their self-imposed and ungodly restriction on the promotion of universal education, all these institutions must be brought under the ambit of RTI as far as school level curriculum is concerned. There can be one subject on religion focusing on the inter-faith and universal dimensions of Islamic message, given that each Muslim household teaches the basics of religion to its children.
    3. Intellectual ambivalence of educated Indian Muslims: the RTE versus the Ridiculous Fatwas


    Conclusion: If the educated Muslims remain a silent witness to the exclusion of RTE to the madrassas as per popular demand, they or their posterity will have to pay a very heavy price. The mainstream Hindu community in India is going through a series of major reforms – many in line with the Qur’anic message – notably eradication of caste system, women’s right to inheritance, a widow’s right to remarry and so on. The Indian Muslims on the other hand are opposing reforms – much in the way their ancestors did in British India that led to their self imposed exodus from India, created inter-faith hatred and the culture of riots. If the Muslims fail to keep pace with the progressive strides of the mainstream Hindu community, they will end up as the pariahs and the underdogs of Indian society and bear the wrath of those who want India to shine, and the educated Muslims will alone bear the responsibility for this self imposed doom. With this the writer requests the New Age Islam to mount a campaign to support RTE extension into madrassas.
    4. The evolution of the Hadith sciences and the Prophet’s Sunna and the need for a Major Paradigm Shift regarding the role of the Hadith Corpus and the scope of Madrassa education.


    Conclusion: “… there is an urgent need for a major paradigm shift in Islamic religious thoughts and the scope and curriculum of traditional madrassas: they should be converted to universal houses of learning like the Western missionary schools with the same curricula and education system as in civil schools – with the addition of a Religion class. The Muslim students may be taught the fundamentals of the Qur’anic message and the non-Muslims, the fundamentals of their faith.

    By muhammad yunus - 3/12/2012 8:45:45 PM

  • Mr. SultanShahin has taken up a very crucial, relevant and most urgent issue at UNHRC, infact, this is high time to call for a ban on any religion-oriented education centrewhich does not comply with minimum code of education as follows:- 1. CompulsoryStandard English Education 2. Compulsory Standard Mathematics syllabus 3.Compulsory Standard Science Syllabus 4. Compulsory Physical Fitness TrainingEducation with at least two sports events 5. Complete BAN on Petro Dollar funds(KSA and Iran etc.) in any Religious Education 6. Compulsory Basic ComputerEducation.

     it’s a pity to see Madrasa educated stuff whoeven can’t fill a Bank Draft form and on the top of that, they are brainwashed inbelieving themselves as the best human beings in the world. They are nothingbut a unique form of parasites created by Islamic education system who believesit is fighting against Jahiliiya. They themselves have become the highest formof Jahiliiya. Alas, the guilt lies with petrodollars states who spend millionsevery year in countries like India and Pakistan to breed this form ofignorance.

    Thank youvery much, Mr Sultan Shahin, for bringing the burning issue to the world forum.Hope, GOI will soon do something to issue some guidelines to madrasas to complysix points agenda which are mentioned above. I know, education is a Statesubject and they have never been honest on this issue. if they were, thingswould have not taken such an ugly turn. Regards

    By Shamshad Elahee Shams - 3/12/2012 6:11:58 PM

  • @satwa Gunam. Your comments are fine but your concluding remark re sensual pleasure in the heaven needs to be corrected on the strength of the Qur'an - the ONLY uncorrupted scripture and final auhtority in Islam. The following extract from my (joint) publication clarifies the matter:

    "The Qur’an clarifies that its graphical descriptions of the rewards of paradise and punishments of hell are parabolic and allegorical, and declares:
    “A likeness of the garden which the heedful (muttaqun) are promised (is that) streams run below it, its food and its shade are everlasting...” (13:35).
    “No soul knows what delights* are kept secret for them as a reward for what they did” (32:17). *[Lit., ‘delights of the eye’.]
    “A likeness of the garden which the heedful (muttaqun) are promised (is that) in it there are streams of water never brackish, and streams of milk, whose taste never changes, and streams of wine – delicious to those who drink, and streams of honey, pure and clear...” (47:15).
    While Islamic theological literature abounds in speculations about the rewards of paradise and the punishments of hell, these ‘expositions’ catered to the intellectual and emotional needs of the era, are not rooted in the Qur’an, and can hardly be of any help to the believer. To earn God’s blessings, a believer needs the glow of faith, the love of God, and compliance with divine guidance, rather than the attraction of hur4 or fear of hell. However, the believers can take a lesson from the Qur’anic description of human state in hell and paradise, and in doing so, cultivate a behavior pattern that can make their life pleasant on earth. Thus, for example, those in hell are described to be arguing, blaming, wishing to die, trying to rationalize, and also wondering why those they considered evil are not in hell, whereas people in the heaven are in peace and don’t utter wrong and are in deep gratitude."

    Thanks and God bless you

    By muhammad yunus - 3/10/2012 9:49:57 PM

  • @yunus, Sama, beda, dhana and dhanda is the way suggested by some of the eastern philosophy. When people roam around abusing, at one level, you have no choice to hit back in the weak point and there are enough weak points. I respond only to one sided hate arguments against hindus and justifying whatever muslim do. Otherwise i donot respond and i choose to be abuse as sometime people donot understand other than violence. further invariably the argument are that the whole world is against muslim, i think all have better thinks to do rather than wasting their time against one community. In the competitive world, every body is running fast to stay where they are and actually nobody has time for their own kith and kin in the rush for survival and certaining people donot have time for any ant-slogans. Further muslim as stated by ghulam or nezami or sadaf will be in the superiority mode [ caliphate, sultanate, ruled india ] or in victim mode. They expect the world to clap for their earlier statement and lend shoulder for they being victim. Honestly, i am not interested in both but the current reality which required to be faced by the country. Further in case if any of argument were factually wrong, please do mention and i will apologize and correct, but not certainly otherwise. I have maturity to see ram in rahim and i have no issue neither visiting velankani church nor ajmer dargah. My continuous prayer [ not a five time part time ] is to guide me in the right path for reaching divinity rather than expect sensual pleasures in the heaven.
    By satwa gunam - 3/10/2012 9:26:46 PM

  • SatwaGunam/Sadaf/Raihan Nezami and others. This is on the unproductive exchange ofopposing views as one sometimes encounters on this website.

    When aperson admonishes his child, he has no regrets, but if someone else does thesame thing to his child, he is angered. If a child in a family, next door,cries, the noise evokes annoyance, but if it is one’s own child, the feeling istotally different: concern and compassion. Satwa Gunam with his erudition canprobably quote many such examples on the imperfection and inherent weaknessesof human logic and perception. Thomas Jefferson said, “An enemy generally saysand believes what he wishes.” Another fundamental truth concerning humanjudgment is its innate urge to establish the truth of its pre-conceivednotions, the notions that remain deeply and at times indelibly embedded in hismind. Therefore a ‘typical’ Muslim and ‘Hindu’ who do not regard each other asone and the same by attributing their confessional differences to happenstanceand acknowledging the commonalities, they can at times get distracted from themain issue at hand by the captivity of their mind to its pre-conceived notions.The commonalities are many e.g i) personal issues like child education, medicalexpenses, rising living costs, need for a flat or to change the flat for abigger one or to acquire flats for children or in the major cities, unendingcash demand at home front…. ii) the values of life – good deeds/karma, care andconcern for the poor and the underprivileged, strong filial ties, universalvirtues like justice, liberty, dignity and livelihood for all - for example;iii) the need for mutual understanding on a logical basis – you can’t kill a manor rape a woman today and condone it by the fact that the victim’s grandfatherhad killed and raped hundreds of men and women, or trying to establishspiritual/ cultural superiority (Muslims versus Kafirs) and lobbying forconversion rather than seeking reform internally.

    My onlyrequest to all participants is to think as human being – proud Indians,descending from the same lot – the Aryans/ pagans/ Dravidians, divided intodifferent religions because of historical factors but desperately needing mutualgoodwill and understanding for the greater good of the people of thesubcontinent – imagine India and Pakistan sitting at nuclear warheads andcourting militant fundamentalism. The sentiment may be utopian and purelyphilosophical for the run of the mill educated lot. But those few who take thetrouble to comment on this website (unless paid by some quarter) may try torise above the religious divide while penning their views. Each of them shouldthink as Ram and Rahim, as advocate of as-slam and om-shanti simultaneously.

    I will alsorequest all not to give any detailed response to any incriminating comment orabsurd/ theoretical proposition except putting in a sentence or two for acharge not refuted may get established as a truth.

    By muhammad yunus - 3/10/2012 9:09:41 PM

  • @Mohammad Yunus: While we tend to blame politics for everything, you aptly bring out the social and economic roots of this problem. Your comment also shows that while we Muslims keep thinking of ourselves as superior beings and the bearers of a superior religion, in truth we are no different from other religious and non-religious communities that have similarly fallen prery to feudal structures throughout history. Today's problem, as you say, has the added dimension of terrorism. But for an answer, we must go back to the roots, we must address the social and economic structures that compel so many people to send their children to madrasas in the first place.
    By Athar Azimabadi - 3/10/2012 11:25:50 AM

  • Good to hear words from Mr. Adeeb Neyazi. I hope that friends like him will carry on the good work of our struggle against the conspirators and such tyrant authorities. I wish Mr. Adeeb Neyazi, all the best.
    By sadaf - 3/10/2012 11:12:24 AM

  • I on my personal experience know that Madarsa students are not only discouraged to study any of the modern subjects like Science and English. My father being an English teacher in a district town of Bihar fought the concerned authorities for letting their Madarsa students study English. They were not allowed to attend classes. My maternal grandfather is the Secretary of the Madarsa and Masjid built on Petro-dollar assistance. My father contacted and requested him to let the students study English. And it is a harsh truth that the student belong to very very poor families hence not having enough courage to speak against the authorities concerned for the fear of being expelled. I thank Mr Shahin for taking up the issue in United Nations. 'Jazak al Allah' for his efforts.
    By Adeeb Neyazi - 3/10/2012 10:37:37 AM

  • OK Mr. Abdul Wahid Osman Belal, will you send/have you sent your child to Madarsah. If no, why? Because it is not Madarsah Jadeed Islamiah? If yes, let us see see what product that Madarsah is producing.
    By sadaf - 3/10/2012 9:34:38 AM

  • One must appreciate the services rendered by the madressahs by examining their syllabi and the services they provide to the students including boarding lodging etc and solving socio-economic problems
    By Abdul Wahid Osman Belal - 3/10/2012 9:17:35 AM

  • @ghulam India has a vast number of poor. If every poor start telling that government must come to my area and start doing my service, is that possible? Now SP has own and muslim community leaders have claimed that it has won because of muslim vote. Take my word after five years, the things will be exactly where it is today and mulayam singh and his family will be only interested in looting the state government. god helps who help themselves. Otherwise you can sit and cry for eternity neither the god nor the government is going to come. I have seen the muslim ghettos in bombay near kurla and bandra but the same you can see in dharavi. Poverty is the curse of india in the neo liberal decade. Politicians and government officers are ganging to loot the public money and the gaps between the haves and havenot is ever increasing. I donot expect the government to help anybody leave alone muslim. Even today not more than 20 to 30 percent of the government funds reach the needy and it is looted by the politicians and officers.
    By satwa gunam - 3/10/2012 7:36:45 AM

  • Jansanghis are 'deshdrohis' who want Muslims citizens to remain a burden on the state by not letting them be capable enough and then contribute as much in GDP as they take out of it, just because they hate them. Jansanghis in order to drown Muslims will not care that it is India which is paying the price by loss of potential contributors to its GDP. Jansanghis did it before too by letting India get divided and they still oppose any move that India be reunited with Pakistan. Jansanghis are the traitors. And all this they do to keep Muslims impoverished.
    By sadaf - 3/10/2012 4:31:39 AM

  • Your rare appearance to speak out the truth, confirms that you are a Madarsa product Mr. Iqbal. You should be guiding us but either you chose to remain unavailable or you are incapable to guide us. For your incapability, your Madarsa is to blame or else you are to be blamed for your non-availablity.
    By sadaf - 3/10/2012 4:09:29 AM

  • These are rubish and stupid allegations by those who do not have real understanding of Islam and Madrassahs.
    I am a product of madrassah and refute all these allegations. Stop this kind of propaganda. It is basically the ideas of such kind liberal fascists that are promoting extremism in the socities.

    By Iqbal - 3/10/2012 4:00:47 AM

  • Satwa, instead of carrying on with your stupid Sanghi rant, and your "we are so good" refrain, go and study the conditions in Muslim areas. Juhapura would be a good start for you, but only if tou can keep your eyes and ears open, which I very much doubt.

    By Ghulam Mohiyuddin - 3/10/2012 3:09:26 AM

  • @ghulam See your own response. Why cannot muslim go where the schools are. You want the mountain to come to mullah rather than mullah going to mountain. You have conveniently not answered the question of why muslims are not starting their own schools under minority priveleges rather than be a parasite on the society and government. All minority and majority community has schools @sadaf, I did not expect any thing sensible but for mad rattling, so i let it go. You can take thousand horse to the pond but the horse needs to drink. If horse needs the water, it will come in search of water to the pond.
    By satwa gunam - 3/10/2012 2:41:34 AM

  • Jansanghis continuous objection toanything for the benefit of Muslims is one major reason Satwa, just as you areopposing to have good, secular and free government schools in Muslimneighborhood. Your opposition is an evidence of the typical Jansanghis rolewhich I mentioned. The moment things will be done, you will shout ‘minorityappeasement’. You are a ‘deshdrohi’ who want citizens to remain burden on thestate by not contributing as much in GDP as they take out of it, just becauseyou hate them. Such schoolings will empower them and you will find moreresistance to face in your agenda to keep them deprived. You can clearly see ithere, where no Maulvi is there to comment on this forum and expose the dangersfrom Jansanghi, you find it impossible to hide what is in your mind when I makeyou write all those things which proves your agenda of keeping Muslimsdeprived. 

    The Jansanghi mind is so much biased andso much over-sensitive that they act like ‘chor ki daadhi mein tinka’ even whenI say “The blame has to rest on these conspirators but before that it has to beon the upper-class, middle-class and well-off Muslims. All the insults thatMuslims face today rest squarely on these irresponsible Muslims who shrug offtheir responsibility of not providing leadership to the community and keepingits interest and image in order”. 

    I am very much clear in my view that the“reasons like poverty, carelessness of parents, lack of finance by the societynon-fulfillment of the Zakat obligation by the affluent people” are muchsmaller reasons compared to the non-contribution of upper-class, middle-classand well off class Muslims in sending their children to Madarsa. Yes, they havesome genuine reasons to not send their ward to Madarsa and those reasons arehypocrisy and urge for shedding false tear for Muslims apart from the real factthat these Madarsas are really ill-equipped to meet their standards. But ifthey wanted their children to have good Islamic knowledge, they would haveparticipated in pushing the society to have that kind of Madarsa where theycould send their children. 

    Yes, I am a product of Madarsa thereforeI have first hand experience of things and then I too have walked mileseveryday to go to a Govt. School, but I am ready to walk much more tell theworld that it is that Govt. School which enable me to give reply to all thosewho conspire against Muslims (Jansanghis and pseudo-secularists) and thoseupper class, middle class and well off apathetic Muslims and blame all of themfor the mess they have created for Muslims. The real punishment for all thosewell off Muslims is that they have to share all the bad branding about Muslimstill the time they choose to claim themselves Muslims or they are identified asMuslims.

    By sadaf - 3/10/2012 2:31:34 AM

  • Madrass is where children are conditioned to have their minds closed rather than opened. That's what we call Imaan; and that will be considerd a good thing by the society.
    By Syed Rizvi - 3/10/2012 1:07:54 AM

  • Satwa says, "you talk like a typical muslim who wants to blame the world."

    You talk like Sanghi Hindus who think all Muslim grievances are the result of the fact that they are not as hard working as you are! Visit Juhapura in Ahmedabad. that might open your eyes.

    By Ghulam Mohiyuddin - 3/10/2012 12:51:13 AM

  • @ghulam Sorry to state that you talk like a typical muslim who wants to blame the world for all their miseries. I lived in a village and i used to go to a Christian missionary with bible as a subject at the age of five by sand lorries which pass by the village and buses which come once in an hour. Inspite of we being a hindu, my father took the choice of education as a priority and i have not become a less hindu because i studied bible as a subject. India is not rich enough to start schools wherever it is required. Why are you not asking the Muslim community to start good schools for their children under the minority institution benefit rather than expect the government. Today politicians and officers who run the government are interested in feathering their nest than people. It reminds me of the "god help people who help themselves"
    By satwa gunam - 3/9/2012 11:50:17 PM

  • Satwa, it has never happened that the government wanted to build a school in a Muslim locality and the Muslims opposed it. The madrasa may oppose the RTE, but if there were enough secular schools for Muslim children to go to, there will be hardly any children left in the madrasas. Even now less than 4% of Muslim children go to madrasas.

    By Ghulam Mohiyuddin - 3/9/2012 10:28:31 PM

  • It is simply a wonderful article that raises a theme that needs urgent attention and action. The madrssa curriculum is dominated by the Hadith sciences. As noted in a recent exegetic work, “since the literary style, setting, paradigms, and dialectical constructions of the Hadith literature date back to the early medieval era, their continued teaching and propagation, such as in traditional religious schools (madrassas), can adversely impact the mental development of the students, shackling their power of reasoning and virtually freezing their intellect into the early medieval era.” Hence as demonstrated in the article (referenced below), there is an urgent “need for a Major Paradigm Shift regarding the role of the Hadith Corpus and the scope of Madrassa education.”
    I am personally grateful to Sultan Shahin for raising the issue at the highest international forum. The secular Muslim elite/ leaders, appear to be fully satisfied with the traditional madrassa as it produces for them cheap labor (as all of them cannot be accommodated in mosques and madrassas) and sets their own children apart as the product of modern education, who are privileged in employment and business world. The trend is reminiscent of the old feudalistic philosophy of keeping the masses in abject poverty so that their constant worry for livelihood blots out the awareness of their exploitation by the ruling elite – generation after generation. The problem has been lingering for long, but with rising unemployment and advent of terrorism, the issue has become extremely serious and is boomeranging on the educated Muslim elite: in the eyes and media of the Western world, all the Muslims are stereotyped. Therefore the problem must be addressed.

    By muhammad yunus - 3/9/2012 10:16:42 PM

  • @ Reyaz: You can find about 50% of the Muslim children in the mainstream of higher scientific education who have completed from Nadwah or other Madarsas or are Hafiz-e-Quran, are they have acquired very high posts in their lives. It is not only like this they are just roaming around the mosques or madarsas. If it is, there are certain reasons like poverty, carelessness of parents, lack of finance by the society non-fulfilment of the Zakat obligation by the affluent people and many more. Otherwise, it would not be the case. It is also not binding that they will become the extremists, so I don't agree the Islamic teachings are brain-washing, if it is, their brain must be washed against the null and void western immoral and un-Islamic practices. So that they can be better Muslims as well as better Humans.
    By Raihan Nezami - 3/9/2012 9:42:40 PM

  • @ghulam Government is trying its best in the name of right of education but the muslim leaders does not want it, so who to blame ? Are muslim ready to come on the roads against the religious leader to state that RTE is good for them, if not government will conveniently go with religious leader after all democracy is also mobocracy
    By satwa gunam - 3/9/2012 9:36:47 PM

  • Aiman Reyaz Nice to read you objective statement of inward looking with regard to the problem rather than start blaming the external for the mess.
    By satwa gunam - 3/9/2012 9:34:32 PM

  • @sadaf You are the true example of the child out put of madarassa. How will rss or jansanghis be responsible for what is happening in the madarassa. Remove the spectacle of hatred and look at facts, probably that will be first step to solving of the problem that is being discussed.
    By satwa gunam - 3/9/2012 9:33:21 PM

  • It is a wonderful article. How sad it is that hundreds of thousands of Muslim children are programmed into believing that Muslims are the best of creations and non-Muslims, the worst; Muslims will go to Heaven and all non-Muslims will roast in hell etc. I really feel bad for those Muslim children when I see them going into the mosques, holding the Qur'an up to their hearts. I feel bad not because they are reading the Quran or the Hadidths; I feel bad because they read only the Quran and the Hadidth, that's what bothers me. Mr Shahin is right that after a few years the best job that these children, scratch that, Muslim boys and not girls, can get is to become an Imam of a small mosque. This is return that they get after labouring so hard to mug up the Quran. No wonder radicalism is spreading so fast around us; it is mostly because of brainwashing done in the early years. Freud said that a man's personality can be inferred only if we know how his childhood was spent. He is right, our minds, in the young age is like a blank paper, anything can be written on it and I feel shameful to say this but it is a fact that mullahs are the ones who have corrupted the delicate and pure minds of our children. No wonder extremism is spreading fast. Our children’s future is at stake, we must do something to stop it, lest we lose our children to the extremists.
    By Aiman Reyaz - 3/9/2012 7:00:18 PM

  • Control over impressionable minds is the first battlefront in any war of ideas. And the Dark Forces of zealotry seem to be winning this one. But they mustn't be allowed to. This statement not just raises the issue of the deleterious impact of madrasa education, but also apportions the blame and points out what needs to be done about it. Of course it is not only for the United Nations, but for common Muslims as well to rise to the challenge. Many concerned non-Muslims ask when will Islam meet its own Enlightenment. This statement by Sultan Shahin shows that Islam perhaps doesn't need an Enlightenment the way Christianity did -- the Quranic message is so much in consonance with the ethos of the modern, scientific world. But it has been turned on its head by concocted Hadith and so-called 'fatwas' that have no basis or place in Islam. Perhaps our Enlightenment lies not in searching for a new secular spirit, as Europeans did some centuries ago, but in rediscovering the original Islamic spirit of peaceful coexistence and search for all forms of knowledge. Reforming madrasas will have to be the first port of call in this voyage of rediscovery.
    By Athar Azimabadi - 3/9/2012 6:01:10 PM

  • Thereis a conspiracy of communal Jansanghis and pseudo-seculars politicians in Indiaand self-serving Mullahs everywhere, each for their own reason but united intheir objective to not let Muslims go for modern, secular, scientific andhigher education. I am not against Islamic education, rather I am emphasizingthat well off Muslims should give more attention to acquire Islamic knowledgealong with the regular education that they receive so that they are able totake back the responsibility of leadership from semi-literate Maulvis.

    Honestly,it doesn't take much to learn as much as these Maulvis know about Islam. Infact much more is needed to learn and such Maulvis are well short ofunderstanding and appreciating the power of ideas and convictions of Islam. Itwas the same Islamic ideas that had revolutionized the world when understandingand propagating its concept was not relegated to just Maulvis. It is absolutelycruel and unjust to blame Maulvis who are the only ones who dedicate theirlives in imparting Islamic teachings. Though, it is another matter that theirimpoverishment becomes the biggest hindrance to let them have completeeducation.

    Jansanghisdo not want Muslims to be powerful and claim their rights, pseudo-seculars donot want Muslims to be able to understand their interest but just act asvote-bank to them, and self-serving Mullahs do not want to relinquish andhand-over their plum position of leadership and influence over Muslims toanyone else however competent the other may be. The Maulvis are thoseincompetent Muslims who aren’t trained well enough to teach diplomacy,politics, business, jurisprudence, philosophy etc. that is all within Islam butthey cannot be blamed for these deficiencies. The blame has to rest on theseconspirators but before that it has to be on the upper-class, middle-class andwell-off Muslims. All the insults that Muslims face today rest squarely onthese irresponsible Muslims who shrug off their responsibility of not providingleadership to the community and keeping its interest and image in order.

    By sadaf - 3/9/2012 2:33:35 PM

  • Madrasa educated children are certainly at a disadvantage in this highly competitive world. Many children go to madrasas because secular schools are not within reach or for economic reasons. It is the responsibility of the government as well as the community to see to it that quality secular education is available to all children. Madrasas may then be used to provide liberal religious education on a part time basis, e.g. for 2 to 3 hours on weekends. Madrasas teaching intolerance or hate must be closed down.

    By Ghulam Mohiyuddin - 3/9/2012 1:18:51 PM

  • Excellent article! All Muslims - traditional or moderate must read and act upon it.
    By Raihan Nezami - 3/9/2012 12:07:57 PM