GM sb, after he has lost the argument, will continue arguing needlessly
but endlessly. What is he trying to say that is different from what I said, I
wonder? Can he quote me verbatim and say where he differs?
He says : “They weren't the first modern humans on the
planet, but instead just the two out of thousands of people alive at the time
with unbroken male or female lineages that continue on today."
What did I say that is different? There is only one unbroken
lineage that survives which is why there is only one “Mitochondrial Eve” and
not many but that is beside the point. I have given a reason as to why only one
out tens of thousands of lineages of the contemporaneous females of the “Mitochondrial
Eve” survive while the rest are wiped out.
He says: “What I was saying was that Mitochondrial Eve is not relevant to the
controversy between creationism and Darwinism and you are dwelling on it out of
Did I even say that there is a controversy? What I am saying on the other hand is that the story
from the proven part of Science and history converge with what the Quran says while they differ on the part that is unproven.
In any case, this was a diversion because of which I have covered the
subject of the diversion in another article:
The Story of Creation in
the Qur’an Converges with the Theory of Evolution
He can say what he wants to say under the above article.
continues to blubber nonsense contradicting himself.
accuses me of saying that according to the Quran, human beings pre-existed
Allah's creation of Adam and Eve, he also accuses me of the very opposite!
In the same breath, he also accuses me
of saying that there were no contemporaneous
human beings to the “Mitochondrial Eve” and the “Y-Chromosome Adam” which is
the opposite of what I said! Why wouldn’t there be tens of thousands of other
humans contemporaneous with them if humans pre-existed them?
He should go back and re-read my very detailed comment By Naseer Ahmed - 9/11/2019 1:51:05 AM
GM sb is reduced to blubbering
nonsense. He contradicts himself in his comment. On the one hand he berates me
for saying that the Quran speaks of the existence of human beings for an unspecified but very long period of time before the
creation of Adam and Eve. He
also indulges in the straw man argument as if I have also said the very opposite - that Adam and
Eve were the very first human beings!
He has lost the argument and is now trying confuse everyone as he always does. A man without honour and without integrity. Shameless as he is, he will continue to argue and waste everyone's time.
This is my last comment.
So far, it is GM sb who has made a fool of himself with his stray man
arguments. He neither understands "The Theory of Evolution", its
strengths and weaknesses nor the Scriptures. He does not know the difference
between the Biblical version of the story and the Quranic. He uses weak
arguments of others that have been answered (for example the weak version of
creation from the Bible), while ignoring what I have said. Examine closely and
you will find that he has not answered even one of my questions although
pretending to do so, because he cannot, while I have addressed all his
questions and comments comprehensively.
Let us discuss
below why the mere existence of “Mitochondrial Eve” and the “Y-Chromosome Adam”
supports the story of creation in the Quran. If one insists on only sticking
with the Theory of Evolution, then it supports evolution of a new species in
quantum leaps that begins with one pair and propagates downwards.
the “Mitochondrial Eve” move forward in time?
Let us call the woman who occupies the
position of the present day “Mitochondrial Eve" Martha, and the "Y-chromosomal Adam”,
Jonas. Let us also assume that Martha had only one daughter who in turn had
only one daughter and who in turn had two daughters. Then all of the 7 billion
people today, trace their ancestry to one of these two great, great,
granddaughters of Martha. Now if one of these two great great granddaughters is
to become the “Mitochondrial Eve", then the lineage of the second great
great granddaughter must become extinct. What chance that a lineage that is
nearly as old as the age of the "Mitochondrial Eve" estimated to be
between 50 thousand to 500,00 years old becomes extinct? Although
theoretically, this is possible, it is extremely improbable. Lineages that run
deep also spread wide and have the least probability of going extinct. There is
therefore little chance based on probability that the position of the "Mitochondrial
Eve" and "Y-chromosomal Adam" will move forward.
Why is it more
likely that the Mitochondrial Eve and the Y-Chromosome Adam were a new species?
the nuclear DNA indicate that the size of the ancient human population never
dropped below tens of thousands. Martha
and Jonas therefore had at least 10,000 brothers and 10,000 sisters. Then what
explains that the lineage represented by the approximately 10,000 or more sisters/female
cousins of Martha, have gone extinct but
the lineage of Martha has grown to 7 billion? The only explanation is that
Martha enjoyed some great genetic superiority not shared by her remaining
sisters/cousins, or to speak plainly, the fact that Martha, the "Mitochondrial
Eve" was a different species. The more probable explanation is that every
other lineage (species) has become extinct because this lineage (superior
species) of Martha and Jonas, wiped out every other lineage (species) just like
they wiped out many of their own species also. This is true even if inter
breeding produced fertile children. In such a case, it means that only children
from the lineage of both Martha and Jonas had superior survival skills and not
other lineages including the mixed ones.
Why the Mitochondrial
Eve and the Y-Chromosome Adam can move forward in time only with the creation
of a new species starting with a single pair and propagating downward and not
through gradual and widespread evolution.
imagine that today, one couple produce a male and a female that is genetically
superior to all other humans and a new species. This new species cannot produce
offspring with other humans except between themselves although they are alike
physically and in many other ways. The siblings who we call Beth and John mate
and multiply and their progeny co-exist with other humans for say 30,000 years,
after which their population grows large enough to control the entire
population of humans. At this point, they carry out a systematic genocide over
the next 10,000 years to completely wipe out every lineage except their own.
Beth and John now become the "Mitochondrial Eve" and "Y-chromosomal Adam" of the entire
population displacing the earlier one over a short period of 10,000 years of
we assume a slow, uniform and spread out process of evolution, then every
lineage of Martha and Jonas evolve simultaneously and therefore Martha and
Jonas remain the "Mitochondrial Eve"
and "Y-chromosomal Adam" of every human being even after this
new phase of evolution that makes every human being much superior to any man
that exists today.
the Theory of Evolution
fact that the "Mitochondrial Eve" and the "Y-chromosomal
Adam" do not go as far back as the first appearance of the species of the
genus Homo or even to the first appearance of Homo Sapiens, is therefore proof
of their being a new species and the story of slow, gradual, spread out
evolution over thousands of years, simply hogwash. This is also the reason why apes
still exist even if the first man and woman evolved from them. However, what is
not explained is why did the apes escape the fate of other less evolved human
beings and not get wiped out by the more evolved human beings? Our genetic
memory also does not make us either more hostile or more compassionate towards
the apes in comparison with other animals which also belie the theory of
evolution from the ape. The very clear and categorical verses of the Quran which
say that some rebellious people were transformed into apes and swine make more
sense. The fact that apes and swine genetically resemble us the most may therefore
not be either mere coincidence or because we evolved from either of these
Mutations within a species go on continuously
without producing a new species. A new species is a quantum leap in genetic
mutation which starts with just one couple. It does not matter whether you say
this is as a result of the evolutionary process or creation by God. Even if the
story of creation in the Quran is allegorical, it points to creation of a new
species in quantum leaps and not as a result of continuous mutation, while
continuous mutation to adapt with our changing environment and for survival is
a fact. The very idea of just one pair starting a new species is anathema to
the theory of evolution as it fails to explain why the remaining stock from
which this pair evolved failed to evolve likewise or why there are apes even
today while some evolved into human beings.
Much to learn
from both Science and the Scriptures
many things to learn from the Theory of Evolution and from Noah Harari without
subscribing to their blind spots as well. These blind spots exist only because
they are ideologically and dogmatically opposed to the idea of creation and the
Creator. For a person who is open to all knowledge from Science as well as the
Scriptures, it is easy to reconcile the two. The Quran does command that we use
Science to discover the truth of what the Quran says and I am doing exactly
that. All the Prophets without exception were also ridiculed for what they said
based on the revelations. GM sb is just another shallow disbeliever in the
There is more than one verse that implies
existence of other humans. The Quranic verses regarding creation are discussed in my article:
Was Allah Unjust in Creating Adam and Favouring His Progeny
Over All His Creation?
says Quranic Adam existed 6000 years back. From where did he get this number
6000? The Quran scrupulously avoids mentioning any number - not even the number
of people in the "People of the Cave" apart from pointing out the numbers
that people speculate on.
(Some) say they were three, the dog being the fourth among them; (others) say
they were five, the dog being the sixth,- doubtfully guessing at the unknown;
(yet others) say they were seven, the dog being the eighth. Say thou: "My
Lord knoweth best their number; It is but few that know their (real
case)." Enter not, therefore, into controversies concerning them, except
on a matter that is clear, nor consult any of them about (the affair of) the
the Quran not give the precise number? Because the precise number is irrelevant
to the moral of the story and in any case, people will not cease to argue and
differ even if the Quran were to give the correct number.
estimate of the age of the “Mitochondrial Eve” and the “Y-chromosome” Adam also
differs widely from researcher to researcher and keeps getting revised based on
further research. This will go on and on and therefore there will be many more revisions
and never perhaps agreement on the final number.
leaves to man what he can discover by himself and the subjects on which he is likely
to speculate. This also includes the period it took for the Universe to come
about. Although the Quran says 2 days to create the Universe and 4 days to make
the earth habitable and support life, it also makes clear that this day is not
our 24 hour day. There are three verses that hint at different numbers to what
a cosmic day is like. In one context a day is like a thousand years and in
another context it is 50,000 years. In the context of creation it could be a
different number. So, 6 days means 6 phases of indeterminate number of years.
GM sb is mixing up stories from the
Bible and the Quran. As far as the Bible is concerned, Adam and Eve were the
first humans. As far as the Theory of Evolution and the Quran are concerned,
Adam and Eve were not the first humans. As far as the Quran is concerned,
before the creation of Adam, humans have lived for a very long time, and their
existence is not even worthy of mention. God then created Adam and Eve with Cognitive
powers not given to any other creation. Adam and Eve are the common great grandparents
of all the human beings living in the 7th Century, when the Quran
was revealed. The Quran is proved right by Science in this respect. Al human
beings at the time of revelation, had common grandparents.
The Concept of "Mitochondrial
Eve" and "Y-chromosomal Adam" (or Y-MRCA) are very well
understood. Biology relates them to the first humans that appeared 5-7 million
years ago, and to the Homo Sapiens that appeared 315000 years ago. As far as
biology is concerned, only their lineages survive to day and every other
lineage has become extinct. Theoretically, if the "Mitochondrial Eve"
and "Y-chromosomal Adam were not a new species, and could breed with other
humans, then it is not necessary for them to have ever met. Biology however
does not rule out that they could have been contemporaries and mated with each
other and produced progeny.
The estimate of the age of the "Mitochondrial Eve"
ranges from 50,000 to 500,000 years ago and that of the "Y-chromosomal
Adam" also falls in this range. Biology is not yet able to place the
numbers more accurately, but that is not necessary for my argument. Now if
humans appeared 5 to seven million years ago, and the anatomically modern
humans (Homo sapiens) over 315000 years ago, there must have been at least ten
thousand sisters of the "Mitochondrial Eve" and 10,000 brothers of
the "Y-chromosomal Adam". What
is the probability, that only one man's and one woman’s progeny have survived
today? Does biology favour survival of the progeny through such interbreeding
or does it favour the theory that the age of the "Mitochondrial Eve"
and the "Y-chromosomal Adam" should be as old as the age of the
species? Certainly, biology favours the theory that the age of the "Mitochondrial
Eve" and the age of the "Y-chromosomal
Adam" should be as old as the age of the species. The "Mitochondrial
Eve" and "Y-chromosomal Adam" are then a new
species and not the same as what appeared 5-7 million years ago or even 315000 years
ago, although anatomically the same as Homo Sapiens.
It is GM sb who understands neither Science
nor the Scriptures but blindly believes in Science and blindly rejects the
Although he is fond of quoting the exhortation of the Quran to pursue the Sciences when it suits him, he recoils as any atheist would, at the very thought that the Quran speaks facts that can be scientifically established.
Another straw man argument from GM sb. He says: "So some inbreeding did occur between Neanderthals
and Homo Sapiens"
What is the proof? The proof is
that we have genes in common with the other species. We also have genes in
common with the pig. I believe that if we succeed in transplanting organs from
animals to humans, it is most likely to be from the pig. The Quran forbids
eating pork without giving a reason. The Ulema merely speculate on
the reasons without any basis for such speculation in the Quran. The reason
most likely is the genetic closeness which makes it a form of cannibalism and
therefore unhealthy. The Quran does say that Allah turned some rebellious people
into apes and pigs as a punishment and as a lesson to the rest. As per the
Quran, some humans have been turned into apes and pigs but not vice versa.
This is not to say that inter species
breeding does not take place. My previous comment itself speaks on inter
species breeding. Inter species breeding however does not convert the donkeys
to horses but produce sterile mules.
Genetic mutations to cope with our
changing environment and creation are both facts. The Quran also talks about
Noah who preached for 950 years and so must have lived a thousand years. So, if
genetic engineering can extend our lives, such modified genes are within the
range of possibility for our species. The Quran also talks of people much
stronger than the people of the 7thcentury who built cities hewn
For a person well-grounded in both the
sciences and in the Scriptures, it is easy to see where Science and the
Scriptures converge but such a person is a rarity. The Ulema do not
understand Science nor trust it and those who pursue Science only pay lip
service to the Quran and do not believe in it as the word of God and therefore
the literal truth.
Let Science disprove just one verse
from the Quran and then I will also treat it with the same disdain as GM
sb does and categorize it as a 7th Century anachronism irrelevant to
us in the 21st century as he does.
It is GM
sb who is trying to wriggle out of his nonsensical straw man arguments. I have
clearly said that Harari is an atheist who does not believe in creation and therefore
dogmatically ignores the Scriptures although the Scriptures provide a perfect
explanation for the “Cognitive Revolution” while biology has no explanation
GM sb says : His thesis that
animal behavior is more DNA-controlled than human behavior is absolutely
without any merit.
To quote Harahari “The Cognitive Revolution is the point when history declared its
independence from biology”.
Since the Cognitive Revolution took
place only some 70,000 years ago as a result of genetic mutation, and this
happened with only one species of the genus Homo, the behaviour of all other
species continues to be totally dependent on their DNA and only the modern man’s behaviour is both dependent and independent from his
instinct/DNA/biology. It is not instinct alone that enables, restrict and shape
man’s behaviour but also his religion/culture and beliefs.
What is common between
Human beings and other species?
have not become exempt from biological laws. Our societies are built from the same building
blocks as every other living organism. To quote from the Quran, Allah has
created every living organism from water and elements found in the earth. Adam was created from the same elements as
every other organism. However, just as every species has its own distinctive
DNA, so it is with Adam and his progeny.
puts the modern Human being in a category of its own?
The fact that the genetic mutation
causing the Cognitive Revolution happened only with this species is what puts
modern human beings in a category of its own.
The argument of Creation vs Evolution
The four species of the genus Homo
Homo Rudolfensis (East Africa);
Homo Erectus (East Asia);
Homo Neanderthal (Europe and western Asia).
Members of one species may mate with
a member of another species but not produce any offspring or only sterile
offspring. For example a horse may be mated with a donkey to produce a mule
which is sterile.
Harari argues that the modern man is
from the species Homo Sapiens and an unexplained genetic mutation caused the
Cognitive Revolution. How does this work? So, there is a pre cognitive
revolution population of Homo Sapiens and all of a sudden the mutation occurs
in all members of the species? Or is one
random offspring born with this mutation? And if so, how is the mutation
propagated? The obvious answer is
through procreation. Is this new mutant genetically not more different from
other non-mutated Homo Sapiens than a Homo Sapien is from Homo Erectus for
eaxmple? The obvious answer is yes which means the new mutant is a new species.
If it is not a new species, then it can procreate with other members of the Homo
Sapiens and produce offspring with non-mutated genes. This means that we should
still have Homo Sapiens with non-mutated genes or people who are unable to
learn the human language. This is not the case and every child born has the
capacity to learn any of the world’s
As far as our genes are concerned, we
share something in common with every other species and therefore with every
species of the genus homo as well.
Whether we take the argument of
evolution or the argument of creation, the modern man is a species distinct
from Homo Sapiens which existed for thousands of years before the Cognitive
Revolution. If this was not so, we should still find babies being born without
the capacity to learn the human language.
Biology really has no answers to the
fundamental questions and it is through blind dogmatism alone that they maintain
the façade that the theory of evolution has all the answers. It does not. Unless we are as blindly dogmatic as the atheists in rejecting the Scriptures, there is no
reason to accept the perfect explanation provided by the scriptures.
not matter whether the verses in the Quran about the creation of man are
allegorical or a simple statement of fact. The point is that the Quran speaks
of a creation of a new human species with cognitive powers so superior
that even the Angels are asked to prostrate before this creation.
speaks of pre-historic existence of species belonging to the same genus homo
which is the reference point for the angels who are aghast at another similar
also contains clear verses of pre-historic humans whose existence is not even
worthy of mention.
are also filled with wonder with the genetic mutation that all of a sudden,
without anything to explain it, caused the "Cognitive Revolution".
who believe in the Quran as the literal word of God, making the connection is
easy. It is understandable that for those who are congenitally opposed to
the Quran and reject it as the literal word of God, this discussion will cause
them extreme cognitive dissonance. How they resolve this cognitive dissonance depends
upon their integrity. They can correct their views about the Quran or continue
to delude themselves with straw man arguments.
Science and Religion
The Quran, Islamic Theology,
Philosophy And The Sciences - What Is God And How Do We Go About Trying To Know
God Better? (Part 1)
The Quran, Islamic Theology,
Philosophy and the Sciences – On Soul and the Creation of Man (Part 2)
An example of the DNA determining and limiting range of
behaviour from Noah Harari’s book
Two million years
ago, genetic mutations resulted in the appearance of a new human species called
Its emergence was
accompanied by the development of a new stone tool technology, now recognised
as a defining feature of this
species. As long as Homo erectus
did not undergo further genetic alterations, its stone tools
remained roughly the same – for close to 2 million
Noah Harari summarizes as follows:
To summarise the
relationship between biology and history after the Cognitive Revolution:
Biology sets the basic parameters for the behaviour and capacities of post
Cognitive Revolution humans. The whole of history takes place within the bounds
of this biological arena.
However, this arena is extraordinarily large, allowing post Cognitive
Revolution humans to play an astounding variety of games. Thanks to their
ability to invent fiction, post Cognitive
Revolution humans create more and more complex games, which each generation
develops and elaborates even further.
Poor GM sb! He
persists with his nonsensical straw man arguments as always.
Dear Naseer Saheb, your
interpretation of Quranic verse 5: 3 (“This day I have perfected for you your
religion and completed My favour upon you and have approved for you Islam as
religion), is that "what is found in the previous scriptures but not in
the Quran is abrogated."
However, it seems to me that the
verse 41:43. (nothing is said to you that was not said to the apostles before
you), should mean that only those exhortations in the Quran that are also found
in previous scriptures (Vedas, Upanishads, Yoga Vasishta, Gita,
Buddhavacana, the Tripitaka, the Sutras, Old and New Testaments,
etc) are of universal and eternal
relevance. The rest are of contextual nature and were revealed to guide the
Prophet and his companions in issues of the moment and hence cannot be
applicable to Muslims today.
comment is a straw man argument. He is attacking what I have never said. When I
say that Adam and his progeny is a species distinct from other species, it is
not different from saying that the horse is a species distinct from the donkey
and every other species. Both statements are true. The horse and the donkey do
share a common ancestor and likewise Adam and his progeny are also from the
genus homo of which the other species are Homo Rudolfensis, Homo Erectus or
the Homo Neanderthals. This is the reason why when Allah decided to create a
new species of the genus homo, the Angels were aghast and said:
(2:30) Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on
earth." They said: "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make
mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and
glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said: "I know what ye know not."
verse cited indicates that human beings given to mischief and bloodshed already
existed and therefore the Angels wondered what Allah meant by a new creation of
the same genus Homo. However, this creation is different in their cognitive
ability which is why Allah says:
(2:31) And He taught Adam the names of all
things; then He placed them before the angels, and said: "Tell me the
names of these if ye are right." (32) They said: "Glory to Thee, of
knowledge We have none, save what Thou Hast taught us: In truth it is Thou Who
art perfect in knowledge and wisdom." (33) He said: "O Adam! Tell
them their names." When he had told them, Allah said: "Did I not tell
you that I know the secrets of heaven and earth, and I know what ye reveal and
what ye conceal?" (34) And behold, We said to the angels: "Bow down
to Adam" and they bowed down. Not so Iblis: he refused and was haughty: He
was of those who reject Faith.
evolutionary biology we learn that from an animal of no significance, a cognitive
revolution that began about 70,000 years ago, transformed man who started to
form elaborate structures called cultures based on common values given by
religion. The biologists are not sure what caused the revolutionary new ways of
thinking and communicating which constitute what may be called the Cognitive
Revolution. They conjecture that accidental genetic mutations which Yuval Noah
Harari, a historian, philosopher and an atheist, calls “the Tree of
Knowledge mutation”, changed the inner wiring of the brains of the modern man,
enabling them to think in unprecedented ways, and to communicate using an
altogether new type of language. Note that the verse about Adam’s unique
creation metaphorically describes “the Tree of Knowledge mutation” which makes
Adam superior to the Angels in knowledge about the world. Another verse that
metaphorically describes genetic coding that makes us instinctively believe in
Allah is as follows:
(7:172) When thy Lord drew forth from the
Children of Adam - from their loins - their descendants, and made them testify
concerning themselves, (saying): "Am I not your Lord (who cherishes and
sustains you)?"- They said: "Yea! We do testify!" (This), lest
ye should say on the Day of Judgment: "Of this we were never
did this mutation not occur in the other species of humans such as the
Neanderthals? The biologists think this was pure chance but consider that it is
more important to understand the consequences of the Tree of Knowledge mutation
than its causes. From the Scriptures, we know that it was not chance, but a new
creation as described in the Quran with cognitive abilities that astounded the
Angels. The biologists connect our species to the species Homo sapiens which
appeared some 150,000 years ago, because we are more like the Homo sapiens than
the other species of humans. The fact may well be that we are very much
different from what existed before the Cognitive Revolution. The biologists,
not being believers in creation, conjecture that it was a chance mutation in an
creation is described as follows:
(15:29) "When I have fashioned him
(in due proportion) and breathed into him of My Rūḥī, fall ye down in
obeisance unto him."
ruh of Allah is Allah’s inspiration with which He inspires man. In the case of
creation of Adam, it was both inspiration and genetic coding with cognitive
abilities hitherto not given to any other creation – not even to previous
species of humans such as the Homo rudolfensis, Homo erectus or the Homo
neanderthalensis which is why Allah says:
(3:33) Allah did choose Adam and Noah, the
family of Abraham, and the family of ´Imran above all
would Allah say He chose Adam above all people unless there were other human
species? Also consider:
(17:70) We have honoured the sons of Adam;
provided them with transport on land and sea; given them for sustenance things
good and pure; and conferred on them special favours, above a great part of our
(19:58) Those were some of the prophets on
whom Allah did bestow His Grace,- of the posterity of Adam, and of those who We
carried (in the Ark) with Noah, and of the posterity of Abraham and Israel of
those whom We guided and chose. Whenever the Signs of (Allah) Most Gracious
were rehearsed to them, they would fall down in prostrate adoration and in
(4:1) O mankind! reverence your
Guardian-Lord, who created you from a single person, created, of like nature,
His mate, and from them twain scattered (like seeds) countless men and women;-
reverence Allah, through whom ye demand your mutual (rights), and (reverence)
the wombs (That bore you): for Allah ever watches over you.
honored Adam and his progeny over the progenitors and progeny of every other
species including other humans. The function of Allah’s Ruh is described in my
and Mysticism: Is ‘Ruh’ Soul? (Part 2)